this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
454 points (95.8% liked)

THE POLICE PROBLEM

2522 readers
16 users here now

    The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.

    99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.

    When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.

    When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."

    When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.

    Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.

    The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.

    All this is a path to a police state.

    In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.

    Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.

    That's the solution.

♦ ♦ ♦

Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.

♦ ♦ ♦

RULES

Real-life decorum is expected. Please don't say things only a child or a jackass would say in person.

If you're here to support the police, you're trolling. Please exercise your right to remain silent.

Saying ~~cops~~ ANYONE should be killed lowers the IQ in any conversation. They're about killing people; we're not.

Please don't dox or post calls for harassment, vigilantism, tar & feather attacks, etc.

Please also abide by the instance rules.

It you've been banned but don't know why, check the moderator's log. If you feel you didn't deserve it, hey, I'm new at this and maybe you're right. Send a cordial PM, for a second chance.

♦ ♦ ♦

ALLIES

!abolition@slrpnk.net

!acab@lemmygrad.ml

r/ACAB

r/BadCopNoDonut/

Randy Balko

The Civil Rights Lawyer

The Honest Courtesan

Identity Project

MirandaWarning.org

♦ ♦ ♦

INFO

A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions

Adultification

Cops aren't supposed to be smart

Don't talk to the police.

Killings by law enforcement in Canada

Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom

Killings by law enforcement in the United States

Know your rights: Filming the police

Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)

Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.

Police lie under oath, a lot

Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak

Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street

Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States

So you wanna be a cop?

When the police knock on your door

♦ ♦ ♦

ORGANIZATIONS

Black Lives Matter

Campaign Zero

Innocence Project

The Marshall Project

Movement Law Lab

NAACP

National Police Accountability Project

Say Their Names

Vera: Ending Mass Incarceration

 

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

    Details are still scant, but...

“I mean, he had a lot of ammunition in that house, and certainly ... all of us were strapped, you know, with ammunition, and we were calling for additional ammunition,” Kraus said. “Like I said, we tried to give him every opportunity to come out.”

    ...I'll go way out on a limb and suggest that this could've been handled better.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 74 points 1 year ago (12 children)

I get that he fired first ( the eviction situation is a whole other bag of nuts) but couldn't 5 police officers with some tear gas have fixed this in 30 minutes with a lot less gunfire?

The guy was losing his home and he was scared. We don't know what his mental state was and we don't know how he came in to possession of so much fire power so I'm not going to assume he bought guns instead of paying his rent- I'm just going to assume that 75 officers and 6.5 hours of gunfire was obviously not the best way out of this situation.

[–] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 59 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Are you kidding me, cops love this kind of stuff. They might act like they were scared or that it was a serious situation, but they were having so much fun. Cops wake up every day and hope something like this happens.

So yeah, it definitely could have been handled better.

[–] TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I meant that the guy they murdered was scared. I know who seeks to be police officers and it's not people who are generally egalitarian or understanding.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

couldn’t 5 police officers with some tear gas have fixed this in 30 minutes with a lot less gunfire?

I've got a theory that we'll never see investigated, and that's that dude is responsible for probably about the first ten shots and the rest of this "standoff" was police shooting in response to hearing their own gunfire.

[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Only if they were trained worth a damn and didn't have the biggest chip on their shoulders imaginable outside of an evangelical church.

[–] RobertOwnageJunior@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nope, we hate lil' wussies with feelings and we love shooting people in the fucking face multiple times.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 64 points 1 year ago (20 children)

Does anyone else see that people having enough ammunition at home to keep up over six hours of gun fire is the real problem here?

[–] hglman@lemmy.ml 63 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're right; the cops should have less ammo.

[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Cops shouldn't require any ammo for 99.9% of their jobs.

[–] Lowered_lifted@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Who else is gonna shoot your dog?

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 54 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Second Amendment exists precisely so you can get in six hour stand offs with cops- James Madison

[–] gamer@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

James Madison? Who the fuck is that? The second amendment is a God given right.

Don't be ridiculous, General Grant sniped God with a M1 Garand at the landing on Lexington Beach.

Human rights are demanded and earned by humans, with guns.

[–] doggle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 46 points 1 year ago (3 children)

No. I see a man being forced out of his home at gunpoint as the problem here.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Guy doesn't have enough money for rent

Guy owns enough guns and ammunition to keep the police in standoff for 6½ hours

...

But housing price was the issue? 🤔

[–] CADmonkey@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (10 children)

How long was he collecting ammunition? Did he buy a box on payday once in a while for a few years, or did he go out to Walmart and buy everything he used?

Everyone seems to assume that this guy found out he'd be evicted and he immediately went and bought a rifle and 20,000 rounds of ammunition that evening. Bullets don't go bad, he probably bought them over a few years.

load more comments (10 replies)

Hosting pricing is an issue, but you've got a point. Maybe not in this case.

There's a whole cavalcade of other issues here.

[–] iN8sWoRLd@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Here's what I read - I do not have the source but it was on a local Pittsburgh news site IIRC. He wasn't paying rent. House was his deceased brother's house which he bought in 1998 - not sure if shooter had inherited it or not, but there was something in excess of 15K owed for back taxes on it. An LLC paid the taxes on it and BOOM its their house - he filed paperwork with the state that they were scammers and he was contesting what he saw as an someone stealing his house. The LLC filed to have him evicted. Ultimately he made a bad decision to use a weapon and not a lawyer but he was ex-military and may have seen this as the last straw.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

He was a SovCit.

Court records show the house was owned by Hardison's brother Joseph, who died in March 2021. It was deeded to their father, William Hardison Sr., who neglected to make mortgage payments. The house was foreclosed upon and sold in March to a limited liability corporation called 907 East Street.

William Hardison Jr. was evicted from an apartment on the Northside last year for non-payment of rent. The attorney for 907 East Street says he began squatting in the Board Street home in April, and the LLC petitioned for his eviction in May. William Jr. then filed papers in federal court accusing the new owners of fraud and trespassing, maintaining the house was his and refusing to leave -- despite a judge's order to do so.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/who-is-william-hardison-suspect-in-garfield-standoff-held-sovereign-citizen-beliefs/ar-AA1fK1nZ

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

I think guns and bullets are a lot cheaper than you think they are. You can get a gun and a thousand bullets for under $500 last I checked.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Also the eviction, and the cop response.

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 58 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Why didn't the cops just leave and then surprise arrest him two days later when he leaves for some groceries or something?

Obviously he wasn't a flight risk since he was literally in trouble for not wanting to leave. Did he have a hostage or something? Why was it time sensitive to arrest him that very day?

[–] Lowered_lifted@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Because they wanted to murder him

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] jmanes@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago

Alternate phrasing: Single man takes on 75 cops for 6 straight hours.

[–] Clent@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Another responsible gun owner.

This is why I laugh when the ammmosexuals claims their arsenal protects them.

[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Thank you for the word "Ammosexuals". I LOVE it. It perfectly describes this kind of "people".

load more comments (17 replies)
[–] ikiru@lemmy.ml 49 points 1 year ago (37 children)

...I'll go way out on a limb and suggest that this could've been handled better.

Yeah, I mean, they could stop evicting people and sentencing them to homelessness.

That would be a start and would have avoided this entire thing.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I mean the guy could have not spent all his money on guns and ammo and pay rent?

Where are guns on Maslow's hierarchy of needs do you reckon?

[–] sudo22@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Ammo costs far less than rent and lasts far longer then just a month when purchased.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] AmidFuror@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Apparently if you're sufficiently against property rights, they're vital.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (36 replies)
[–] rez_doggie@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago

End qualified immunity. They likely damaged other people's property and deprived they of their rights while endangering them.

load more comments
view more: next ›