this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
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Today I Learned

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For critics of widening projects, the prime example of induced demand is the Katy Freeway in Houston, one of the widest highways in the world with 26 lanes.

Immediately after Katy’s last expansion, in 2008, the project was hailed as a success. But within five years, peak hour travel times on the freeway were longer than before the expansion.

Matt Turner, an economics professor at Brown University and co-author of the 2009 study on congestion, said adding lanes is a fine solution if the goal is to get more cars on the road. But most highway expansion projects, including those in progress in Texas, cite reducing traffic as a primary goal.

“If you keep adding lanes because you want to reduce traffic congestion, you have to be really determined not to learn from history,” Dr. Turner said.

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[–] Stety@lemmy.world 229 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Just one more lane bro, I swear it'll fix traffic. Just one more lane.

[–] Pollo_Jack@lemmy.world 72 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just a little more trickle down bro, I promise once we privatize the next utility it will all work.

[–] SnowdenHeroOfOurTime@unilem.org 27 points 1 year ago

Lol. One thing I just thought of. Ignoring the extremely obvious fact that trickle down economics is something you tell stupid people to be okay with getting the shaft... can we name one time in history (golden shower jokes aside) where something trickling onto you is a good thing? The word carries questionable connotations. I don't want anything trickling onto me...

[–] intelati@programming.dev 50 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The intended purpose isn’t to fix traffic. It’s supposed to allow more volume of cars through per day. Entirely different things.

I’m not suggesting that’s a good thing.

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[–] lemmyseizethemeans@lemmygrad.ml 137 points 1 year ago (15 children)

But think of the alternative. In Japan the trains arrive every 10 minutes are publicity subsidized so cost is minimal and because of this there exists an entire generation of train nerds that just want to go out and photograph trains. Are you gonna let the nerds win?

[–] Wolf_359@lemmy.world 80 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can't let a bunch of train virgins take away my Ford F-750.

[–] evatronic@lemm.ee 46 points 1 year ago (1 children)

12 yards long, 2 lanes wide,

65 tons of American Pride!

Canyonero! Canyonero!

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[–] JJROKCZ@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Those train nerds are super cool. James may talked to a couple of them that had memorized every station’s unique arrival jingle and message and the one guy could whistle them. They said they weren’t popular with the ladies but i don’t understand how with cool skills/knowledge like that

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[–] inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 102 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Yup. Been plenty of studies to show that increasing lanes only alleviates traffic in the short term and long term only makes it worse. Better to spend money on trains and busses that actually work and get people where they need to go with minimal hassle and a reasonable cost than to do this crap.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

to me it's like the military industrial complex - they don't care what evidence supports, they want their fucking money and they'll keep building roads until it's a giant parking lot from sea to fucking sea. we could have an ecosystem, but fuck you, because cars.

[–] VinnieFarsheds@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I already see the angry republicans on Fox news raging on how their precious tax dollars are being wasted just to benefit poor people

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[–] TenderfootGungi@lemmy.world 91 points 1 year ago (8 children)

This is because the extra lane allows demand to change. It is not congested so people feel ok building and moving to further out suburbs. This continues until demand has increased to cause delays.

Note that Houston and Paris have about the same population. Paris is 1/3 the size. They are actually removing a lane from their loop highway and planting trees, and turning another lane into busses only. Only considering transportation, I would much rather live in Paris.

[–] kyle@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago (6 children)

If you also consider the weather and politics, I would still much rather live in Paris.

[–] DoctorTYVM@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Food and culture, also Paris

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[–] Ryan213@lemmy.world 67 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why, oh why didn't they build 27 lanes?!?

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 37 points 1 year ago

99% of urban planners stop just one lane short of permanently solving traffic for good.

[–] Default_Defect@midwest.social 65 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Simply make it a single flat wide open surface, drive where you're trying to go in a straight line.

If you die, you die.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca 61 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Who knew that adding complexity to a system entirely reliant on millions of autonomous drivers who only communicate with each other through lights, horns, and middle fingers would slow things down.

[–] Uncle_Bagel@midwest.social 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Lived out there for a few years and i can tell you no one is communicating through the lights on their cars.

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[–] InevitableCriticism@lemmy.world 61 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I live in Katy. Driving through this from 4-7 pm is an absolute nightmare. Horrible traffic jams, erratic drivers and multi-car accidents daily. Mornings aren’t fun either.

[–] hoodatninja@kbin.social 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

After Hurricane Katrina I lived in Houston for about six months. I still have nightmares about your highways. I don’t know how y’all do it.

[–] InevitableCriticism@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh jeeze… it was so bad after Katrina. I’m sorry you had to deal with this and the hurricane.

Toll roads were a great alternative 10-15 years ago. Now they are just as bad as freeways. It’s nearly impossible to find alternatives unless Google Maps finds a neat back way around this hell hole.

[–] hoodatninja@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Luckily I was a typical self-centered teenager, so I was pretty good at being oblivious and ignoring what was going on around me. It also helped that I had very strong parents who worked tirelessly to make it as seamless/normal for my siblings and me haha.

Well hopefully they will come up with a solution that isn’t just adding more lanes! Don’t have a lot of hope for Texas and public transit these days, but I feel like y’all would be prime candidates for high speed rail between some of your cities.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 59 points 1 year ago (2 children)

For anyone wondering what that looks like-

Absolute insanity.

[–] Noughmad@programming.dev 42 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Where are the bridges? How do you walk from one side to the other?

Oh yeah, right, of course. But how do you even drive from one side to the other?

[–] saruwatarikooji@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You don't really... You exit and follow the service road until you find a way to get across, usually by going under.

I hate driving in Texas because this kind of shit is everywhere. Middle of nowhere and want to get to the rest area ahead? Exit and follow the service road for a mile.

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[–] CanadianCorhen@lemmy.ca 55 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The fools, if they had made in 27 lanes they would have been fine!

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[–] solstice@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I thought it was common knowledge of the only way to reduce traffic is to reduce demand on roads, eg more expensive gas and tolls etc.

If you add another lane to the highway you're just gonna attract more people and make it worse.

[–] IronKrill@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Reducing traffic by raising prices is a pretty piss-poor way to do so if the only alternative is walking or decrepit bus lines. There need to be other measures taken.

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[–] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The US is all about more lanes for cars and less public transportation. Congestion be damned. Because "SoCiaLiSm."

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[–] sartalon@reddthat.com 39 points 1 year ago

Houston is commonly used as an example for what NOT to do, when it comes to civil planning and development.

[–] maniajack@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] hark@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (5 children)

If you've got more lanes then you've got more lanes for idiots to cross right before the exit they need to take because they weren't paying attention and they MUST take this particular exit or their life is over or something.

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[–] 5redie8@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Literally play 2 minutes of cities skylines and you will discover how bad of an idea this is lmao

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[–] Grappling7155@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 year ago

I N D U C E D D E M A N D

Great for sidewalks, bike paths, and trains, but terrible for cars.

My only time in the Houston area, and visiting friends staying in Katy TX, and I learned how quickly I hated the traffic there. This makes sense

[–] Bye@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The purpose of widening the highway isn’t to make individuals move faster or to solve congestion. It’s to move more individuals, and therefore more money.

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