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No please Bayo and 2b do not deserve this (hexbear.net)
submitted 7 months ago by autismdragon@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net
31 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

https://twitter.com/momiji_doa/status/1775263456956121259

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[–] GlueBear@hexbear.net 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I'm gonna be real with you: Bayonetta was created by a man, and don't give me that "designed by a woman" bs bc we all have a job to do and we all need to put bread on the table. Hideki's comments about women being "intimidating" and "competitive" especially put things into perspective with Bayonetta's design. It's just another form that the male gaze and heteronormative sex appeal can take (dominating and competent instead of the usual submissive and helpless woman). A better example of a dominating and competent female vg character would be Karlach. You can have a "sexy" character without making them sexist.

I say this as someone that played and loves the first 2 games (I'm not supporting a Zionist voice actress that hates the living fuck out of people like me, so I'm not playing 3).

I think this meme is mostly correct. Maybe a case can be made for 2B, but I personally stand by what I said about all of them. People have no reason to hate on Eve (or stellar blade for that matter), unless they also find Bayonetta and 2B's design problematic as well.

She's probably going to be just as "well written" as the other two characters, you don't know until you've played the game.

She really is no different than the other 2 characters in design philosophy as well, if we're being honest.

All 3 were developed and designed (or had to undergo design approval) by men, all 3 are sexualized on purpose to cater to a mostly male-hetero fan base, all 3 have had (and in Eve's case currently have) a toxic "gamer gate" crowd that's blaming feminists and feminism for "taking away their hot women" and replacing them with "ugly women"

undyne-huh so yeah

[–] UmbraVivi@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I strongly disagree with this comment.

Bayonetta is not a sexualized character, she is a sexual character. A female character being sexualized means that there is external emphasis on her sexuality when the character herself does not define herself by her sexuality in a major way. My go-to example for this is Sonya Blade in Mortal Kombat 9, who is supposed to be a tough, no-nonsense military woman but who wears skimpy clothing for no reason other than awooga, despite it making no sense for who she is as a character. Bayonetta does define herself by her sexuality, she's flirty and sexy because she wants to present herself that way. And sure, you could argue that that is still imposed on her by an outside entity because she is a fictional character, but you can guess where that line of reasoning would lead you.

There are plenty of women who enjoy being sexy and who define themselves by their sexuality as Bayonetta does. It only becomes a problem when women who don't want to be (primarily) perceived as sexy are forced to do so by outside entities to appeal to the male gaze. That is when someone who isn't "sexual" by themselves becomes sexualized. This is absolutely not the case for Bayonetta, she has full agency over her sexuality and expresses it out of her own volition.

Karlach is a completely different character archetype than Bayonetta is. Karlach's sexuality is not a primary aspect of her character the same way Bayonetta's is, a better comparison from BG3 would be Mizora. A competent, dominant character who presents herself as sexy. Mizora is not a sexualized character, but if you put Shadowheart in Mizora's outfit while making no changes to who she is as a character, that would be an example of sexualization. If there was a scene where Mizora gives the player a lapdance it wouldn't be much of an issue because it makes sense for her character to want to do that, if there was a lapdance scene for Shadowheart it would be a very different thing.

You can criticize Bayonetta for being a man's idea of a female power fantasy character, but you can't criticize her overt sexuality as an inherent flaw. Plenty of women do enjoy being perceived as sexual beings, they enjoy the idea of being a succubus or a seductress, and the idea of only women being allowed to create characters like that is ridiculous. Sexy, seductive female characters in games are not inherently misogynistic.

[–] GlueBear@hexbear.net 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This is absolutely not the case for Bayonetta, she has full agency over her sexuality and expresses it out of her own volition.

Because the writers chose to write her that way. Dominatrix is a fetish, that's what Bayonetta is. A fetish. She is literally wearing a cat suit in the first game she has a whip that has a mask with thigh high belted heels and an enemy punish animation that solidifies all of this.

I can write a character, make her a middle eastern woman, and then write her to be utterly helpless and in need of a white man to save her from her "evil" culture.

I can do all of that, and if someone calls me out for reinforcing harmful and problematic stereotypes I can simply say:

Plenty of women do enjoy being perceived as submissive and weak beings, they enjoy the idea of being a damsel in distress. Helpless female characters in games are not inherently misogynistic.

Which is why I talked about who made Bayonetta, because that is what separates a character like Uncle Ruckus from being an actual Uncle Tom and a straight up minstrel show act.

And just to add:

My go-to example for this is Sonya Blade in Mortal Kombat 9, who is supposed to be a tough, no-nonsense military woman but who wears skimpy clothing for no reason other than, despite it making no sense for who she is as a character.

This reminds me of the "no black elves" argument. In fiction you can write whatever you want. There are no rules that you have to follow aside from grammer and punctuation. Bayonetta could have been written to be able to do what she does without nudity being used a reward for executing a certain combo or beating a boss.

[–] Xx_Aru_xX@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago

The problem with talking about Bayonetta is that it's a video game character, and the over represented majority of gamers are horny chuds, and when it gets to things with actual nuances like if a character is sexualized or is representing women sexual liberation you get bullshit thrown in, I've noticed this in I have the misfortune of witnessing a discussion about Bayonetta.

[–] Moonworm@hexbear.net 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Such a "sexual" vs. "sexualized" character is just someone with a modicum of skill going "Nah, it's cool, she is into being hot."

I don't care, for the record. I think it's fine to make characters that are hot and enjoy that.

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Im sorry but who designed the characters asside theres no way that SB is going to have anywhere near the narrative depth of Nier Automata or even Bayonetta. Its just not going to happen. Ive heard the gameplay is good and thats nice i suppose but this is about charachter depth.

And Nier and Bayo have not been championed by chuds to anywhere near the same extent SB has, and have huge queer fanbases. Its never been the same.

Personally I read Bayo's sexuality as being positive, nonobjectifying, and empowering but like your allowed not to. But ive met plenty of women who agree with my take so I stand by it. Seems subjective to me.

2B is not that, she's sexualized in an objectifying way, but I will reiterate the massive queer fanbase the game has, as well as there being much much more to 2B than a nice butt.

(Also i just fucking hate SB's visual presentiation/art style and like Bayo and Nier's so).

Also i dont think "designed by a woman" is entirly irrelevant unless she had no input and just followed directions?

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

Sure, every person wants to play a game filled with only half naked sexy women in it, it's not off-putting nor embarassing at all for anyone ever, because only lonely basement dwellers buy and play vidyagames, right?

For fuck sakes, I like the Witcher Saga games but it's so embarassing that every single non-evil woman shows off so much cleavage all the time, makes me feel like a fucking creep for playing it. Sure the politics of the game arent great either, etc

[–] booty@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

but it's so embarassing that every single non-evil woman shows off so much cleavage all the time

Especially insulting because one of the biggest offenders, Triss, was in the books. She had like 4 character traits. One of them was that she NEVER SHOWS CLEAVAGE. EVER. She has extreme trauma related to a time she was almost burned to death, and she was very self-conscious of the faint burn scars that were still visible on her chest from that experience.

So some dipshit at CDPR reads that and goes, "Ah, yes, I have just the outfit for her. How's this?" It's so fucking cringe goddamn it pisses me off

[–] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

For fuck sakes, I like the Witcher Saga games but it's so embarassing that every single non-evil woman shows off so much cleavage all the time, makes me feel like a fucking creep for playing it. Sure the politics of the game arent great either, etc

Witcher 1 had Geralt collecting tradings cards of women he slept with in provocative poses. Like you sleep with them, it fades to black, then the trading card fills up the screen.

Real bad time to have your parents walk in the room.

Anyway, I'm glad they realized how cringe they were being and toned it down a bit.

[–] tormeh@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Huh? They've been pretty ok after the 1st one, which admittedly was very cringe.

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Politics or booba?

[–] tormeh@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Booba. Witcher 1 was baaad.

[–] RNAi@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Haven't played it yet, but apparently you collect naked pics of the NPC you get laid with. The level of creepnes man

I played 2, didn't finish it, and started 3 some months ago

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Every single right winger that users Nier as some example of right wing politics either didn't play the game or stared at the screen drooling with their brain switched off for the entirety of the multiple playthroughs it takes to fully finish it.

[–] itappearsthat@hexbear.net 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

the game isn't an example of shit about fuck, I literally feel gaslit like millions of gamers saw a couple of characters named after philosophers (which every anime has been doing forever) and were like "wauw so philosophical"

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Every one of Yoko Taro's games has been anti violence and anti military but the entirety of right wing culture war appropriation boils down to "if it has tiddy it's good and anti-sjw" and "if it does not have tiddy it's woke". This is also how they completely misunderstand Kojima's games.

[–] itappearsthat@hexbear.net 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I really don't think the themes are that strong. There's like some "endless cycle of violence is bad" thing going on but they are not convincingly anti-military.

[–] Eris235@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago

Yeah, I don't get how Yoko's coombrained games get such praise from leftist. They're held up as some amazing experience, but imo everything about them (maybe aside from the music) was pretty mid.

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago

Youre not being gaslit you just have different taste and presumably didnt care for the metanarrative themes or something.

Kind of tired of "gaslit" being used for casual purposes like this really.

(Also i have my doubts all 14 of your upbears agreed with you lmao. I feel like Hexbear gets way to excited about contrarian takes about popular media because tbh most of y'all kind hate art lol)

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Same, N:A was boring as shit and made me feel gross playing it around my partner

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Tbh i think if this is your take on Nier Automata youre being just as unable to see past the sexy girls aesthetic surface as the coomerbrained chuds are, just in the opposite way. But i guess taste happens.

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I mean it was also boring as shit, so i didn't really have any motivation to explore it's deeper themes

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago

You mean like gameplay wise? I mean ok strong disagree but sure.

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I never will understand why rightoids are allowed to be horny and not us.

Most of them are scared shitless that some supernatural entity is going to torture them forever for having a sex drive, and that's why call anything even remotely risque the funny d-word, yet it never seems to apply to them. Like they're allowed to be perverse as a "reward" for conforming so well.

[–] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I find it very strange that some leftists will defend sex work and pornography, with all the implications around human trafficking, consent, exploitation, etc., and then also condemn M rated games for having protagonists who are sexualized.

[–] Eris235@hexbear.net 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I mean, I'm more or less like that.

In short, I think both should be legal. In regards to sexwork and porn, its mostly because it will happen regardless, might as well make it as safe as possible for the people at risk.

But like, I'd still generally condemn someone for regularly purchasing sex, just as I would to someone who only plays coombrained games (not that those two things are 'equivalently bad' mind).

People should be allowed to make, and consume, bad media, and also people should be allowed to dunk on them for liking bad media.

[–] GlueBear@hexbear.net 2 points 7 months ago

In short, I think both should be legal. In regards to sexwork and porn, its mostly because it will happen regardless, might as well make it as safe as possible for the people at risk.

I think we can do better than that. Don't legalize it, decriminalize it and then offer women who are stuck in those situations help so they can get out.

No one wants to put themselves at the forefront of some of the worst male (and state) violence for mere dollars, they do it bc they have no choice.

The solution should always be to help women escape those situations, not make those situations legal.

As for porn, that whole industry is just sex slavery with a mask on it. I'm not denying the existence of "ethical porn" but the facts state that the whole industry is caustic with abuse, trafficking, and rape.