this post was submitted on 04 Dec 2024
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menby
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A space for masculine folks to talk about living under patriarchy.
Detoxing masculinity since 1990!
You don’t get points for feminism, feminism is expected.
Guidelines:
- Questions over blame
- Humility over pride
- Wisdom over dogma
- Actions over image
Rules (expansions on the guidelines):
- Mistakes should be learning experiences when possible.
- Do not attack comrades displaying vulnerability for what they acknowledge are mistakes.
- If you see good-faith behavior that's toxic, do your best to explain why it's toxic.
- If you don't have the energy to engage, report and move on.
- This includes past mistakes. If you've overcome extreme reactionary behavior, we'd love to know how.
- A widened range of acceptable discussion means a greater need for sensitivity and patience for your comrades.
- Examples:
- "This is reactionary. Here's why."
- "I know that {reality}, but I feel like {toxicity}"
- "I don't understand why this is reactionary, but it feels like it {spoilered details}"
- You are not entitled to the emotional labor of others.
- Constantly info-dumping and letting us sort through your psyche is not healthy for any of us.
- If you feel a criticism of you is unfair, do not lash out.
- If you can't engage self-critically, delete your post.
- If you don't know how to phrase why it's unfair, say so.
- No singular masculine ideal.
- This includes promoting gender-neutral traits like "courage" or "integrity" as "manly".
- Suggestions for an individual to replace a toxic ideal is fine.
- Don't reinforce the idea the fulfillment requires masculinity.
- This also includes tendency struggle-sessions.
- No lifestyle content.
- Post the picture of your new grill in !food (feminine people like grills too smh my head).
- Post the picture of the fish you caught in !sports (feminine people like fish too smdh my damn head).
- At best, stuff like this is off-topic. At worst, it's reinforcing genders norms..
- If you're not trying to be seen as masculine for your lifestyle content, it's irrelevant to this comm. If you are trying to be seen as masculine, let's have a discussion about why these things are seen as masculine.
Resources:
*The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by Bell Hooks
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I really appreciate hooks’ discussion of how religion rigidly enforces gender roles, specifically Christian churches in the west. I was deeply involved in an evangelical church as a teenager and oh my god the number of times I heard “men are the head of the family, god wants you women to submit to your husbands” told to a bunch of teenagers (and adults!) still creeps me the fuck out to this day. There’s a lot of discussion in leftist spaces about if and how the existing structures of churches and religious organizations can be used to further our cause but hooks explains the reality well: religious institutions are inherently conservative and have a long history of collaborating with the ruling class.
The next section on the direct impact of this patriarchal thinking on her home life was horrifying to read
CW: child abuse
Her father beating up his little girl with a plank of wood because she liked playing with marbles and was better at the game than his young boy while the rest of her family just watched in horror is so heartbreaking. I had to put the book down for a little bit after reading that. THIS is the retvrn to trvdition that chuds want. This is what violent enforcement of patriarchy means.I read these two chapters with the recent discussions about Hexbear’s misogyny and general bigotry problems in the back of my mind, particularly the incel apologia that rears its head here whenever that subject gets brought up. hooks dismantles these mindsets very effectively in chapter 2. While she is extensively criticizing feminist “separatist” ideology, she also makes it clear where the lines are drawn (emphasis mine):
The incel epidemic spurred on by alienation and rigid societal enforcement of patriarchal gender roles is a serious problem that we should want to do something about. The answer is NOT to carve out space for these violent misogynists in otherwise safe spaces for femmes and minority groups hurt by capitalist patriarchy. Patriarchal men beat their little girls with boards for being better at a marbles game than their little boys. hooks points out that yes, her story is from the 50s, and the general tide is shifting in that regard, but patriarchy is enforced by violence. Why the fuck would you give these violent men the space and opportunity to continue inflicting that on women? Men have to be willing to do the work themselves before we get anywhere near what incel apologists on this very site are advocating for.
If there’s one single section of this book I want every masc user on this site to read, it’s this one (emphasis mine):
When users on this site (specifically, cishet white masc users) talk over or flat out ignore what minority users are telling them about the bigotry problem on HB, they are the same people who laughed at bell hooks when she dared to name the problem of patriarchy to an audience. They are the same people who agree that male violence against women needs to end, but if that means they lose some benefits of patriarchy, suddenly they’re not on board, and the people criticizing their shitty behavior are having “outbursts”, said in the most condescending tone imaginable. You can claim to be a leftist, you can claim to be a socialist or an anarchist or a communist, but personally identifying with leftism, by itself, is not anywhere near enough. Your “””right””” to make silly little “ironic” misogyny/racism/chauvinism posts on an internet forum is not more important than the safety and liberation of the people you call your comrades. And particularly, if you try to use the above sections from hooks or any other part of her work as a cudgel to make femmes be kind and welcoming to men who want to hurt them, you are a reactionary and you can fuck all the way off out of this space until you start giving a shit about excising your brainworms.
I’m deeply depressed by the fact that the people who need to read this book the most, won’t. I appreciate every one of my Hexbear comrades, and those from the wider fediverse (hi yall!), who are taking the time to engage with this material and educate themselves. This is my first time reading this book as well so we’re all on a learning journey together. From the bottom of my hear, thank you all for your insights and discussions you’re bringing to the table. This is how we learn and grow.
One last piece I wanna highlight from chapter 3:
I feel like I’m in a weird position because I totally relate to this, being seen by others irl as a mild-mannered, “nice” guy while holding a deep sadness and often anger inside, but I’m also too anxious and too hyperaware of other peoples’ perceptions of me to really “act out” in the way she describes here, which is good, thank fuck I’m not inclined to violence and rageful outbursts and never have been. But all these feelings and insecurities I hold don’t really have an outlet at the moment, they just fester. I can identify this rage within myself and the way it presents through self-medication, distracting myself with media, and keeping my true feelings largely contained to when I’m alone and therefore feel free to express them to just myself. If push came to shove I would “implode” as she describes long before I turned that anger and despair on another person. I’ve been considering going back to therapy and this is really helping push me in that direction, I want to be emotionally well not just for myself but for my loved ones, my neighbors, my comrades.
We’re still early in the book but I’m really eager to see hooks provide an alternate path to healthy masculinity, which I assume will come later. Also, how do you reach people who have little conception of patriarchy or feminism and convince them that yes actually it’s good for everyone when you educate yourself and desire to change for the better? Very interested to hear everyone’s thoughts this week!
That's awful, I'm sorry.
I'm sure it feels worse when they know it's wrong.
I totally agree with the highlighting of important parts. Maybe looking inwards and asking how we have first learned patriarchy as children can help to unlearn it. Also, in my experience, talking about my feelings with male socialized people encourages them to open up about theirs as well
About "imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy: maybe understanding it better might help. In her book "Caliban and the Witch", Silvia Federici explains the origins of patriarchy as a form of primitive accumulation, that helped kick-starting capitalism. I only read one chapter in the middle though, it's still on my list.
I think people do not engage with these things(feminism, philosophy, history etc.) because they think it's building castles in the sky. Direct usage of what you learn around them can warm people up to checking this "theory" stuff.
It's very moving to have a moment where you read a seemingly heavy academic book and they just hit the nail on the head about what you're experiencing, then go on to explain why.
Actually her implication is more disturbing.
She implies that what they felt was something more like awe, rather than horror
i used to know someone who fell deep into peterson who admitted that the self help advice was worthless but then proceeded to stick with it instead of looking at any alternative, so i dont know.
I am glad you brought the "imperialist white-supremacist capitalist patriarchy” definition since this is the crux of what I think bell hooks does so well. By giving patriarchy its full name its pervasive nature is really shown. It also shows about how intersectionality is important and how someone can be both privileged and disadvantaged in multiple ways. I think it more clear that when talking about feminism and the patriarchy we aren't only talking about gender but that is a big part of it
The strangest thing I see about the incel epidemic is how these people most hurt by the patriarchal gender roles are doubling down on it. These rigid roles and expectations are not working for them but they insist that these are the only rules for the game.
The crazy thing is that if you are a walking Red Flag like these guys the only way to get women is by playing the Patriarchy game correctly. They can't not play that game because they would have to change and take accountability for your actions. If you are a walking Red Flag all women and most men will run away at the first sign of being asshole. Except those who are using you for something else like money or status. So for this powerful statused-up assholes the only women they see want to use them because they self-select that way. Everyone else would run away or not engage. So from their perspective they are correct but they don't see their world isn't the only one.
The thing about these Manosphere / success influences is they want people to play their own game by their own rules because they are already winning that game. Its like a MLM where you need people to buy in or else it all collapsed. They need people to play their success game using their rules so they can win. I have recently tried to remind myself that I am trying to play "the happy life game" not the "capitalisms successful life game".