this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2025
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Date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, with government using increasingly sophisticated tools to censor its discussion

There is no official death toll but activists believe hundreds, possibly thousands, were killed by China’s People’s Liberation Army in the streets around Tiananmen Square, Beijing’s central plaza, on 4 June 1989.

The date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, and the Chinese government employs extensive and increasingly sophisticated resources to censor any discussion or acknowledgment of it inside China. Internet censors scrub even the most obscure references to the date from online spaces, and activists in China are often put under increased surveillance or sent on enforced “holidays” away from Beijing.

New research from human rights workers has found that the sensitive date also sees heightened transnational repression of Chinese government critics overseas by the government and its proxies.

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[–] Krono 123 points 3 days ago (15 children)

As an American I think it's helpful to put this into some sort of perspective.

Things the US won't forget:

  • Tiananmen Square (thousands dead)

Things the US will forget:

  • Korean War (3mil civilian dead)

  • Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)

  • Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)

  • Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)

  • Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)

  • Violent overthrow of Nicaragua

  • Violent overthrow of Grenada

  • Violent overthrow of Panama

  • Violent overthrow of Libya

  • Coup d'etat of Guatemala

  • Coup d'etat of Iran

  • Failed Coup d'etat of Syria

  • Failed Coup d'etat of Indonesia

  • Many failed Coup d'etat attempts on Cuba

  • Coup d'etat of Congo

  • Coup d'etat of Laos

  • Coup d'etat of the Dominican Republic

  • Coup d'etat of Iraq

  • Coup d'etat of Brazil

  • Successful Coup d'etat of Indonesia (1 mil dead)

  • Coup d'etat of Chile

  • Multiple Coup d'etat of Bolivia

  • Coup d'etat of Haiti

  • Multiple Coup d'etat attempts on Venezuela

  • Coup d'etat of Palestine

  • Mass civilian casualties, destabilization of many governments, people subject to a lifetime of torture without a trial, all under the War on Terror

This list could be so much longer, but I gotta get to work.

[–] foggianism@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

Add to the list the US support of the Israeli war crimes currently going on in Gaza. Just yesterday they vetoed a ceasefire and delivery of aid proposition in the UN.

[–] trumboner@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Hey, the difference is, you can post this list here, and nothing will happen to you.

Become a Chinese citizen, and then post that single bullet item about the TS incident in China, on a Chinese social media. Then see what happens.

[–] Krono 1 points 1 day ago

That may be true, but it doesn't excuse the list at all.

My country is responsible for the majority of international violence since WWII. I find that morally unacceptable.

I make posts like this because I want my country to do better. But the sad reality is we have yet to learn our lesson. We have been aiding and abetting an ongoing Holocaust for almost two years now.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 34 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (6 children)

Things the US will forget:

Korean War (3mil civilian dead)

Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)

Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)

Imagine thinking that the US has forgotten any of these when they're a constantly pressure on the cultural zeitgeist even literal decades later. Or, for that matter, that the Korean War is in any way comparable.

Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)

Twice? Christ, tell me you aren't talking about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention that the 'overthrow' of 'Afghanistan' the second time would rely on recognizing the Taliban, and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not trying to be confrontational or pedantic (there's enough bickering in here) but it's important to state that the Korean War is quite literally called "The Forgotten War". In fact, it's more important to point out that it wasn't even a War, but considered a "police action" that claimed the lives of up to 3 million civilians (link).

Council on Foreign Affairs

Truman acted without seeking congressional authorization either in advance or in retrospect. He instead justified his decision on his authority as commander in chief. The move dramatically expanded presidential power at the expense of Congress, which eagerly cooperated in the sacrifice of its constitutional prerogatives.

Robert A. Taft of Ohio, one of the leading Republicans on Capitol Hill at the time, took to the Senate floor on June 28 to argue that “there is no legal authority for what he [Truman] has done.” Nor could Truman argue that the Korean conflict didn’t constitute war in a constitutional sense, even if he did downplay the significance of his decision. (At a press conference on June 29, Truman denied the country was at war, prompting a journalist to ask, “would it be correct…to call this a police action?” Truman answered simply, “Yes.”

Truman in the end acted because he believed, contrary to what the framers envisioned and the historical record showed, that as commander-in-chief he had the authority to order U.S. troops into combat.... Truman was able to establish the precedent that presidents can take the country to war, though, because members of Congress were unwilling, Taft’s complaints notwithstanding, to defend their constitutional power from executive encroachment.

You can't look at those statements and not make parallels to what's going on in America today with the executive branch trying to sequester even more power. Ironically just recently saw a pretty decent video on the war by Mr. Beat

The War Americans Forgot About

edit: forgot an S

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, just recently I rewatched Apocalypse Now. And I've never been to the U.S. or Vietnam. I agree, this is pretty much alive in cultural memory, not forgotten.

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[–] hark@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

Is it better to be drowned out than forgotten?

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)
[–] Corn@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 days ago

If I had a nickle for everyone who either stopped watching Full Metal Jacket after Lee Emery gets shot or watched the husks of men, who just got massacred by a child defending her home, marching through the burning town while singing children's songs, and thanked the next veteran they met for fighting for freedom.

[–] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (2 children)

That shit gets brought up all the fucking time, in their own threads. Notice how people don't bring up Tiananmen Square, Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uyghurs, or the many other atrocities the CCP has committed whenever an American atrocity gets mentioned.

[–] Krono 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Your comment ignores the context that the US is doing anti-Chinese propaganda here, and there is no parity.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and China was releasing PR statements on every anniversary of every US atrocity. They would still be issuing multiple statements every day.

[–] lud@lemm.ee -5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

How is the US doing "anti-Chinese propaganda"?

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Every time the US president says "CHAYYYNNA", I consider that anti-Chinese propaganda.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What? What that fuck are you talking about and how is it relevant to the tiananmen square massacre?

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca -4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

It isn't relevant. I'm just making fun of your president.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

I don't have a president.

[–] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world -3 points 2 days ago

China is also doing anti-American/anti-West propaganda. It's just favored differently because of different cultural values of the target audience. Still stinks the same.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

All the fucking time? Really? When was the last time the Coup d'état against Aristide was discussed around here?

[–] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Post about it on it's anniversary then. Don't bring it up as a whataboutism in unrelated threads.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I didn't bring up anything, the comment you responded to did. My comment was my first intervention in this thread and I was responding to you specifically. You said that things like that get brought up all the time. I am asking you for the receipts. When was the Haitian coup d'état brought up before today?

[–] samus12345@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 days ago

Allowing the government to be taken over by fascists makes any "remembering" of horrific events pretty meaningless anyway. In the context of government, not individuals.

[–] Gsus4@mander.xyz 19 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Most of that looks right, but

Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)

Ok, this was Indonesia, with murican quiet assent, but still, don't give other countries a pass on these things to make them look clean.

Many of these also involved the local elites going to the US for help. e.g. The draft UN resolution for the no-fly zone in Lybia was produced by the Arab League and backed by the African Union, which pressured russia and China not to veto it.

[–] Krono 6 points 3 days ago

It is not my intention to give other countries a pass. Indonesia is guilty of genocide in the case of East Timor; the US is guilty as well.

The genocide in East Timor is analogous to the ongoing genocide in Palestine.

Both genocides are not conducted by US personnel, but the majority of arms are supplied by the US. The US gives international legitimacy to the genocidal party, while running defense for it's atrocities. The genocide in East Timor was ended by a phone call from the US president, and I am of the firm belief that the genocide in Gaza could be ended by a similar call. Previous Israeli atrocities were ended by calls from Reagan and Bush Sr.

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

And we know the extent of US involvement in these coups and conflicts because the US declassified the info, becauase all info becomes declassified eventually.

When is the Dictatorship of China going to admit that this happened, when will they declassify the internal documents about this atrocity they were responsible for?

That's the problem people have with the Chinese government. They can't even acknowledge reality because they seek to eventually change the records of what really happened to pretend they did no wrong.

[–] Krono 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I agree that declassification is a great thing, but it is not so black and white. Not all info becomes declassified eventually, so much is covered up and destroyed.

For example, much is known about the My Lai massacre in the Vietnam War. Most of this information is known due to declassified documents. But these declassified documents also mention that there were over 100 My Lai-level massacres that occured, most of which we know nothing about. Army Chief of Staff Westmoreland was quoted saying we do a "My Lai each month".

One of the largest, codenamed Speedy Express, reportedly killed 11,000 people, and was covered up at the highest levels.

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't care about your whataboutism meant to deflect

When is the Chinese government going to admit that they were responsible for the Tiananmen Square Massacre?

If you can't answer that then fuck off tankie

[–] Krono -2 points 2 days ago

My best guess is that the Chinese government will admit fault long into the future, when most of the accountability and backlash has already faded into history.

Which is no different than how the US has handled many of the atrocities I mentioned.

When will the US acknowledge and release info on the 100s of Yemeni and Pakistani civilian targets that were destroyed by drone strike? When will the US release the warcrimes reports from the War on Terror? Does the US even still have these warcrimes reports, or were they destroyed (as whistleblowers and Amnesty International have suggested they were)?

If you can't answer questions like these without resorting to cries of "Whataboutism", then fuck off hypocrite.

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[–] who@feddit.org 11 points 3 days ago (4 children)
[–] nednobbins@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago

"Whataboutism" can occasionally be an honest critique of a spurious argument.

When it's just a link on it's own, it's almost always cover for hypocrisy.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago

Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair, and behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be appropriate in a given geopolitical neighborhood. Accusing an interlocutor of whataboutism can also in itself be manipulative and serve the motive of discrediting, as critical talking points can be used selectively and purposefully even as the starting point of the conversation (cf. agenda setting, framing, framing effect, priming, cherry picking). The deviation from them can then be branded as whataboutism

Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for the link.

[–] kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 3 days ago (3 children)

This makes perfect sense, it's one thing for Taiwanese and Chinese people to remember it but its absolute hypocrisy for the west to comment. Especially as they fund the genocide in Gaza and Western Liberals make excuses for it.

[–] arrow74@lemm.ee 10 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I can critize and dislike the US involvement in Korea, the ongoing genocide in Gaza, AND the Tiananmen Square massacre.

I can rank which ones killed more people, but no one should be committing any crimes against humanity like these regardless of scale

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (6 children)

No, it doesn't. Only people who are full shit use and defend this fallacy. People who have principles call out shitty behaviors and actions whenever they see them, that's because principles are universal. If you selectively choose when to apply them, then you don't believe in them.

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[–] Brandonazz@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (4 children)

It'd be a bit like if China and it's entire sphere once a year went crazy commemorating the Kent State or Haymarket Massacre. They wouldn't be wrong to say these are bad things, but it'd clearly be in service of some ulterior motive.

[–] 5too@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Honestly, even with an ulterior motive, I see no reason they shouldn't.

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The thing is, only the US and West do this shit of constantly complaining about other countries and celebrating their historical tragedies every year. And it's not a coincidence that they're also the countries to invade and constantly engage in imperialism all around the world the most, and have the capacity to, with hundreds of military bases around the world.

It's such obvious propaganda against foreign enemies, especially ones we want to fight. You think it would make it super obvious how propagandized Americans are, but they don't see the hypocrisy at all because of that very propaganda.

What would be the point in China bringing up the Haymarket massacre or Kent state every year? And for that matter, what's the point in the US bringing up the Tiannamen Square every year?

Glass houses indeed.

[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The US brings up its own horrible events all the time.

I learned about The Trail of Tears, the era of segregation, and of the KKK in my history class in America. We make conscious efforts to be aware of and criticize our own faults - as well as those of other nations.

There is currently LOTS of criticism of the US government for its participation in the massacre in Palestine. Claiming otherwise is lying. China is relatively unique in that it has committed atrocities, and refuses to allow anyone in its own country to acknowledge them. Both countries have done bad things. One country recognizes those facts and attempts to learn from them.

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

The US is not allowing criticism of Palestine. Not sure if you've seen the stuff happening in college campuses, job applications, the DNC where they didn't allow a speaker, even local elections where foreign policy shouldn't matter, etc. And it's only going to get worse according to the 2025 plan, where it details additional attempts to shut it down. It's also been downplaying other stuff in schools, such as the negative parts of slavery, Jim Crow, basically everything bad the US has ever done. The problem with our education system is that it depends a lot on which state, city, and even school you are from (private or public, charter or not, etc.).

The whole conflict about critical race theory and the Moms for Liberty stuff is all about them trying to roll these things back.

I agree their censorship is too high in China, though, but I think it's a result of siege theory. Essentially they've seen the US do a million coup attempts and color revolutions in other countries, often successful, and so you if you're a third world country you basically need a tight control of your press and elections if you want to resist US control. And I doubt seeing us fall to propaganda in the US from billionaire backed media organizations and foreign countries is going to encourage them to not censor though. Unfortunately, if anything, it will do the opposite.

[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I agree their censorship is too high in China, though, but I think it’s a result of siege theory.

Buddy, fuck right the hell off. The USA is not the only country with free media. Small countries do it too. Al Jazeera is quartered in Qatar, and is critical of both the USA and China. China enacts the Great Firewall because they're power-hungry, not because they want to fucking stay safe, and they are not in any regard a third world country.

[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 1 points 18 hours ago

Al Jazeera is a terrible for you, but a great example for my point. It never mentions things critical of Qatar ever. It's good for news about other stuff, like Palestine, which the US media is likewise horrible about covering. It's why nobody here knew about the situation there until October 7th.

[–] Brandonazz@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

I know your question is rhetorical, but hypothetically China could do that with the aim of whipping up their population into hating the American government more, making them more willing to swallow local authoritarianism and foreign imperialism framed as national defense. That's basically what the US is doing in the current arrangement, only reversed.

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[–] Krono 2 points 3 days ago

Yep that's exactly my point, the US is doing Whataboutism when it issues these PR stunts to condemn Chinese atrocities.

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