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Well. This is pretty significant. I would say it's rather damning evidence that considerably raises the bar to doubt these claims.
There's a lot I could say here. Hamas is a bunch reprehensible fucks. It's disappointing that we needed concrete evidence because of how untrustworthy the IDF is. But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no "good guy" or "right side" among the war combatants. It's awful people fighting awful people. Hamas and the IDF both deserve nothing but contempt and scorn, and both should be dismantled for their crimes against humanity.
I've tried to be very precise with my wording because none of what I just said applies to the Palestinian nor Israeli people. The civilians and innocent people are caught between two legions of hell and are the ones paying the price. The kidnapped and tortured Israelis, the Palestinian people -- both of them are suffering at the hands of both Hamas and the Israeli government.
Neither of them care about the civilians. They use them as lambs for sacrifice and control the flow of information to manufacture hate and support for the war. It's become readily apparent that the IDF and Hamas just want to keep fighting, and they're manipulating the civilians to support them. If both peoples were getting the true, unfiltered information -- sights of dying Palestinian children, demolished buildings, accounts of Israeli hostages -- I think they'd be appalled at what "their side" is doing.
I really hope the majority would be appalled, because there can't be any peace until they recognize their shared suffering and humanity. And to be clear, the majority of suffering is clearly inflicted on the Palestinians.
Edit: I'm not angry at the downvotes but damn am I disappointed. You'd think "fuck the people genociding others and fuck the people taking hostages" would be an uncontroversial position, but here we are.
Reason this is controversial is because hamas is literally the same thing as IDF, bibi funded it and that much genocide also radicalized a shit ton of people, hamas is an asset of Israel, they shouldn’t be equated to palestine in anyway
This exact story will now be used to justify all the war crimes Israel has been doing, when hamas does something, Israel should be the one held accountable, not Palestine, there are no ‘two sides’, its only one side continuously killing the innocent
No disagreement here really. This doesn't justify Israel's war crimes at all. Whether Hamas is effectively the same as the IDF or not, they're a bunch of radicalized shitheads who do not in any way represent the Palestinians. They're closer to ruling dictators than they are champions of the people.
You are right, but when you make the both sides bad argument, the pro genocide have an excuse ‘Oh hamas bad as well’ but the thing is the very reason hamas exists is because of Israel, and then according to me alteast Israel should be held equally accountable
Something I've recently realized is that I can and should do more to call out the genocide proponents. I generally don't engage with them because there's no intelligent discussion to be had there, and there's a lot more interesting and nuanced things to talk about with people who agree this is a genocide that needs to stop.
But, that does give the illusion that the genocide proponents aren't being challenged, and that instead of harshly criticizing Israel I'm just saying "both sides bad". That's something I'm going to try and improve on, because I need to make it crystal clear that Hamas' actions are not even remotely an excuse for the IDF to be genocidal.
Well out of all takes, this certainly is one
Hamas is not the same as israel. The difference in civilian and especially child casualties says enough.
Israel is far far worse than Hamas.
I don’t mean same in that sense, same as in that they are literally the same thing, kinda like different companies operating under one larger one (Netanyahu)
Netanyahu funded them because he considered them convenient at the time. Just like how America funded the Taliban and other groups that aligned with their interests.
And as usual with these groups, their funder loses control over them when they grow to big and it backfires.
Highly doubt that, they might not have control anymore but Hamas certainly did made the job a lot easier for netanyahu
Edit: My analogy was a bit dumb tho, but that doesn’t change the fact that hamas is an asset to Israel, and shouldn’t be lumped with Palestinians or be used make an argument that ‘both sides are bad’, there is only one side bulldozing the other
I don't think Hamas is an asset to Israel. In the 90s, maybe 00s sure, but that hasn't been the case for a good while. Hamas and other Palestinian armed resistance are the reason Israel keeps losing international support. It's more obvious now, but this has been the case for a while now; the scale of destruction Israel causes in Gaza inevitably makes the news, and every time that happens Israel loses just a little bit of popular support in the West. The state of support for Israel we're seeing now isn't just because of the unprecedented scale of Israel's atrocities, but also because even on October 7th there was a significant number of people who knew that Israel is up to no good due to their repeated "escapades" in Gaza. This is why organizations like Amnesty International consider Israel an Apartheid state.
Meanwhile look at the West Bank; they're ruled under brutal military law, held up in checkpoints and subjected to horrific levels of abuse and humiliation (including being forced to strip naked so they be "examined"), are repeatedly attacked by the IDF for reason or no reason and to top it off they're being driven from their homes every day, but how often do they make the news? Even now the situation in the West Bank is being reported on as an accessory to the Gaza "war".
What I wanna say is: Hamas is a very big part of the reason Israel is losing international support, and since international support is their lifeline this is really bad for them. If Hamas and other such organizations didn't exist and Gaza was like the West Bank the Palestinian cause would be in a much worse place now (though whether that's worth the lives being lost is another story).
Yeah what I was trying to say is that there's effectively three sides. Hamas, IDF, and the civilians. The first two are bad, but not the third, even though the third is the one suffering, mostly in Palestine.
Currently israel is losing all global rep. Their facade of the moral army has fallen and they are seen for the Genocidal maniacs they are. Not a massively successful land grab so far.
The downfall is always arrogance. They boast groups that fight their enemies like Hamas to divide and conquer. But then the Hamas grows so big that they beat all other groups. And then they start fighting israel.
Well the problem is one is the occupier and the one is the occupied. And people talk as if Hamas is the Palestinians problem and that it all started October 7th.
Treat people and respect them as humans, don’t put them in open-air prisons, and divide people into an apartheid system, then maybe you won’t have any terrorist attacks and/or rapes.
Hamas is not the same thing as Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians want peace and aren't kidnapping and torturing Israelis.
I completely agree that the Palestinians are being appallingly treated and experiencing apartheid. But they haven't turned to violence. Hamas would like to claim they're freedom fighters, but they stockpile supplies for themselves and steal charity meant for the people. They aren't the good guys here. The good guys are the ones being bombed and massacred.
Hamas was elected to government in Gaza in one of the few elections the occupier has allowed, and there are plenty of parts of Hamas which is not military, the Palestinians want freedom and peace, and resistance against the occupation is also fighting, or politics, be it PLO or Hamas.
Sounds like victim blaming
i noticed most lemmey users here exhibit the same kind of behaviour before the exodus from reddit.
very left leaning and wouldn't hesitate to employ cancel culture if facts don't fit their narratives.
at least there are sane usera like yourself have clearly drawn the line that condemning hamas doesn't equate condemning the palestinians.
evidence have shown,if you condemn hamas,somehow or rather that's Israel's fault and anyone who does it is dehumanising palestinans,never mind the fact that there were palestinians celebrating the death of innocents and giving out sweets to children.
This is incorrect. Hamas told people that a prison was liberated, and that's why they were celebrating. They had no idea that Hamas had killed innocent people like that.
Think about it -- where does information in Gaza come from? A lot of it is coming from Hamas itself. They're going to make themselves look good and lie about what's actually going on.
this is the first i am hearing if this.
mind sharing where you got that info from??
Yep, here you go.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/14/magazine/israelis-palestinians-peace-forum.html?unlocked_article_code=1.gE0.77H3.6ZVCelo_wPu1&ugrp=u
It's a really good article in general, it does a great job of highlighting the disconnect in communication and how Israel and Hamas are manipulating the news.
thank you!
Removed, advocating violence.
Lol
Edit: Turns out I forgot to actually write the comment so here goes:
Hamas aren't good people, but the idea they're even comparable to the IDF is just wrong. Hamas at least has a cause they're fighting for, and have a real, valid reason for taking hostages (namely that without hostages post-war Gaza is fucked) (not saying they're allowed to abuse them that's just fucked up). And have the basic decency not to shoot children.
Natives scalped Americans killing them. ANC killed civilians during their fight against Apartheid.
Don't look up what the Haitians did for their freedom.
The illusion that these people fought their oppressors without committing their own war crimes is some Hollywood shit.
Killing people actively attacking you and murdering slaveowners is a far cry from kidnapping and raping civilians. I also would not say Hamas is a liberation group exactly, considering how they suppress any Palestinian dissent and steal charity meant for the Palestinian people.
A war crime is a war crime. The whole reason I make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people is because the latter aren't raping captives. The vast majority just want to live in peace.
Violent rebellion against oppressors is completely justified. Violence against civilians is not. Think about this woman in the article for instance. Would you consider it acceptable if she killed innocent Palestinians in the process of taking revenge on her former captors? What then about the family of the dead innocent Palestinians?
The IDF is absolutely worse. Let me make that clear. And I'm not terribly troubled by Hamas fighting them. Let the two of them wipe each other out. What bothers me is when the IDF kills innocent people in the process, and Hamas tortures innocent people in the process. Neither side's sins justify the other's.
I agree that the IDF is far worse, and it's not my intent to say they're the same as Hamas. I'm just saying both are bad, even if one is clearly worse.
But I also wouldn't say Hamas has a cause worth fighting for exactly. They aren't a Palestinian liberation army of freedom fighters. Their leaders are a bunch of rich fucks in the UAE and they expressly wanted active violence to start once more. They hoard supplies and steal charity meant for Palestinians. And they brutally suppress any Palestinian protest to their rule.
They still aren't as bad as the IDF, but they're not a group worth championing.
They're everything you said, and also freedom fighters, at least at the present stage. They have the goal of a Palestine free from Israel occupation and aggression and take real action to make that happen. That's pretty much what the bar for being a freedom fighter is, and doesn't preclude them from being bad people otherwise.
TBF in the case of Palestine active violence is the only realistic path to peace. Not via a military victory, but to gather the international community's attention and lose Israel international support. The status quo where Israel one-sidedly blockades and airstrikes Gaza isn't a desirable situation for Palestinians, because it's become normal. It doesn't make the news, spread the Palestinian cause or threaten presidents' reelection campaigns. You'll see this in the fact that while Gaza tends to take the forefront in news coverage of the conflict, the West Bank usually takes a backseat and even now is covered as an accessory to the situation in Gaza, because the West Bank doesn't have much active violence.
What I wanna say is: They want active violence because it works. There's no path to peace without violence when the other side is a country like Israel. The IRA, ANC and Civil Rights Movement (where what pushed the CRA over the edge was riots following MLK's death), among others, have thoroughly proven this.
Violence works, but it needs to be correctly directed and well thought out. No group is able to succeed without allies. In all the cases you mentioned, the groups did not succeed because they conquered the ruling authority, but because the situation created a tent of allies, perhaps reluctantly, who also worked towards getting the injustice to stop.
Peaceful, if annoying, protest against civilians. Violent protest against authority. And if there's going to be hostages, you treat them as kindly and favorably as you can. Hamas would be in a far superior negotiating position if the released hostages were saying that they were treated kindly and cared for, they just weren't allowed to leave. It would create a sharp dichotomy among the Israel's where the government allowed hostages to be taken, but the actual kidnappers treated them better than the government.
I confess, this topic is a conundrum to me. I'm conflict avoidant when it comes to irl issues, so you can imagine I'm a strong proponent of non confrontational methods and I believe they work. The issue of Palestine and Israel is one that really strains that worldview. Sometimes violence is necessary when an aggressor speaks no other language. But does that mean bystanders have to get hurt too? I really want the answer to be no. Maybe it's just sad idealism on my part, I don't know. I don't want to have to believe that innocent people need to die for a greater good.
You should read the accounts of released hostages then, many of them have publically stated they were treated kindly.
This horrific recounting of captivity and rape is an outlier.
I'm legitimately glad to hear that. Do you mind linking an article about that?
Do you think civilian casualties, looting, and rape conducted by the Allies is excusable?
There is very clearly a worse side. The IDF is unequivocally worse and committing genocide. They have caused several degrees of magnitude more people to suffer. That does not mean however that Hamas hasn't caused people to suffer either. Condemning all violent acts doesn't mean we're saying both sides are the same. You can acknowledge fault in two groups simultaneously, and pursue and peace and justice for both of their victims.