this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2024
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[–] d00phy@lemmy.world 131 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Magneto is the manifestation of the saying, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." You could probably reasonably say:

Professor X : Magneto :: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. : Malcom X

Professor X and the X-Men were all for mutant equality, but they always favored peaceful acceptance. Conversely, Magneto recognized that large portions of society would never accept mutants. It also bears mentioning that Magneto carried some "racist" (for lack of a better word) tendencies towards non-mutants. In his view, non-mutants are lesser beings.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 75 points 2 months ago (7 children)

It's kind of hard to argue that non-mutants aren't lesser beings when mutants literally have powers that no normal human could ever hope to have, powers that can even defy the basic laws of physics.

[–] exanime@lemmy.world 61 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Well not all mutants. We always focus on the "cool" ones but there were a ton of mutants that were hopelessly disfigured and with powers that amount to anyone holding a bat

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[–] d00phy@lemmy.world 37 points 2 months ago (3 children)

While I see your point, and I'm not at all painting you with this brush, I think that reasoning could also be used to argue that, e.g., autistic people are lesser beings. I know it's a different universe, but look at Superman: Unquestionably a superior being, but like Professor X, he never put himself on that pedestal. Magneto's insistence that non-mutants are and maybe should be subservient pretty much requires conflict, and starts folks down a path towards subjugation, enslavement, and ultimately elimination. Note: not extinction. Elimination requires action, while extinction, allowing for mitigating circumstances, does not.

Add to all of this that it's pretty easy to understand, and even relate to the origins of how Magnet and Professor X see non-mutants, and X-Men is a pretty great story/universe. They're both similarly flawed, but in very different ways.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago (6 children)

I guess the issue here is about how you are defining 'superior.' If the argument is that mutants are in some way morally or ethically superior to non-mutants, absolutely not. And that is the source of a lot of the conflict in the comics. But in terms of what they can actually achieve in life, when you can do something like Magento does, you've got an inherent superiority.

Now I admit that you can't make that claim for all mutants. Not even all X-Men. I would not say that Cyclops' mutant power makes him an inherently superior human in terms of power because it severely limits him in many other ways and, if he wasn't on a team that regularly needed his power, would find life pretty difficult.

So I guess you can't argue that all mutants are superior, but many of the ones we see could basically rule all of humanity if they were allowed to get away with it.

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[–] GladiusB@lemmy.world 31 points 2 months ago

Do you consider people with learning disabilities lesser than human? I think that is the point they are trying to make. Just because they did not evolve does not mean they are better. Better athletes and performers are revered because they do things normal people cannot, but it doesn't make them more human.

[–] Infynis@midwest.social 15 points 2 months ago (16 children)

In-universe, there are plenty of normal humans with those kinds of powers

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[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The X-men type mutants had powers that seemed to defy the known laws of physics. But, they showed pretty often that most mutants had more drawbacks than benefits.

What made Magneto a villain was that he decided that mutants were the next evolutionary step, and that humans were therefore obsolete. It wasn't even like predicting that mutants were superior and that as a result eventually humans would fade away. It was that he decided that one "race" was superior and therefore was justified in ruling over the inferior race. Which, you know, is pretty dark for a holocaust survivor.

[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

And yet extremely accurate to current Israeli policy

[–] moody@lemmings.world 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

But mutants are humans, and by the "rules" of their universe, mutants are born from non-mutant parents as well.

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[–] Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I love MLK but if I had been around in the days of civil rights, I would definitely have been a Malcom x guy

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 12 points 2 months ago

Good news, you're still in the days of civil rights.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 103 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I think poison Ivy is the best example of the “yeah I can’t pretend this is the villain anymore”

[–] Spacehooks@reddthat.com 61 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Mt.freeze just wanted to save his wife but the bills made him turn to crime.

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world 32 points 2 months ago (1 children)

He should have cooked meth.

Dr. Ice.

[–] zbyte64@awful.systems 17 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Guy robbed banks with non-lethal force, definitely less harm than peddling drugs

[–] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Common misconception. Freeze guns are less lethal ammunition. Very few people have been successfully unfrozen and it causes brain damage.

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[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

I rather liked the Elseworlds depiction of him, just because

spoilerthe sympathetic backstory being a complete fabrication because he was utterly batshit insane
was a nice change-up from the way he'd traditionally been depicted.

e: don't write markdown drunk kids

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[–] PDFuego@lemmy.world 85 points 2 months ago (1 children)

See also: Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy respectively.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 74 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Ivy sure, given what's happening with our climate I would agree.

Harley is just a straight psycho.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 58 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Depends on what version of Harley you're talking about. The original one from Batman: the Animated Series showed that she actually did have morals, she was just totally in the sway of the Joker. Batman was able to convince her to help him more than once by appealing to her good side.

Harley in the self-titled Harley Quinn cartoon definitely has a good side, but she's also a psycho. It's complicated. Unlike her love for Ivy.

Other versions, they definitely lean in on the "Joker except a woman" angle.

[–] PDFuego@lemmy.world 20 points 2 months ago

She's an anti-hero more often than not now, fighting villains bigger than her. From the New 52 when she started going solo and turned on Joker (or he turned on her really), to Injustice where she was a major player in the resistance, to the DCEU where she turned against ARGUS to stop Starro which wasn't even her mission. Even in the Suicide Squad game which is part of the Arkham universe and doesn't include any kind of redemption arc for her she's still only killing the Justice League when they're being controlled by Brainiac, who is probably second only to Darkseid as far as villains go. Under duress sure, but she's doing it.

[–] Zoboomafoo@slrpnk.net 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

I'm looking forward to seeing how Harley Quinn is in Folie à Deux, I think she's going to be the more psycho one that pushes Arthur to further lows. It'll be great

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 51 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Magneto was meant to be a stand in for Malcom X...

Malcom X's only crime was that white people were afraid of him. Meaning he did nothing wrong.

So Magneto can't be a villain unless you have him gripping the villain ball pretty hard.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 53 points 2 months ago (5 children)

The problem with Magento as a character is that he's portrayed as Malcolm X in his rhetoric, but as Dr. Strangelove in his technique. The number of times Magneto has tried to engage in Uno-Reverse Genocide - reprogramming Sentinels, reverse engineering killer viruses, rebounding mind control, redirecting asteroids and bombs aimed at his friends back towards civilian non-mutant areas, reversing the magic ray that strips you of your mutant abilities so that it gives them to you instead - makes him deeply unsympathetic simply because this shit never actually works and typically turns him the poster child for "Why All Mutants Must Be Exterminated!" rhetoric works on the non-mutant population.

Say what you will about Malcolm X, but he never tried to brainwash the LAPD into killing all the white people.

[–] Woht24@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago

Say what you will about Malcolm X, but he never tried to brainwash the LAPD into killing all the white people.

That was Malcolm's first mistake, his second was dying.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago (5 children)

I think if Magneto was written in the present age, he would have been written without the mustache twirling aspect. It has become much more popular to portray both antagonists and protagonists with more depth and grey areas. For that matter, we saw it in some of the recent X-Men movies.

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[–] King_Paimon@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

I get the sentiment. But literally every single creator has come out and said he wasn't based on Malcolm X.

[–] leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Magneto was meant to be a stand in for Malcom X...

While the X-Men were an allegory of the civil rights movement from the get go, I'm quite certain at the time Magneto was just intended as a villain.

I mean... his terrorist group was called “The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants”, and some of the members were definitely of the moustache twirling puppy kicking kind, including Magneto himself, at first...

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[–] ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee 38 points 2 months ago (11 children)

Can someone help me out with this? Not a super hero guy. Why is magneto good now?

[–] JayTreeman@fedia.io 77 points 2 months ago (4 children)

So magneto has actually fought for mutant rights from the beginning. And every time he gets ahead the xmen win and mutant rights don't really move forward. The xmen literally fight for the status quo. The status quo is bad for mutants, but they want to keep it for some reason. An analogy I've heard a lot is that professor x is the mlk to Magneto's Malcolm x. The difference is that mlk didn't bank roll a CIA black ops style team to constantly beat up Malcolm x whenever he started getting a leg up.

People are fed up. They're more open to extreme actions. That's why people are more sympathetic to Magneto

[–] exanime@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago (4 children)

The xmen literally fight for the status quo. The status quo is bad for mutants, but they want to keep it for some reason.

Not quite. Professor X believes that humans will eventually overcome their inherit racism and would be able to live with mutants in peace. He also believes any act of violence from the mutants will push this ideal future further and further (he also does not agree on hurting humans indiscriminately because not all humans are rabid racists)

Whether Professor X is enlightened or just naive, well that's another story

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[–] mycodesucks@lemmy.world 41 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

Put simply, given the state and direction of the world the lofty, idealistic goals of Professor Xavier of peaceful coexistence and mutual trust have come to seem quaint and naive in a world of division, exploitation, inequality, discrimination, and hate. Magneto, by contrast, has always advocated the use of force and exercise of power, not in the interest of "bwahaha, I'm a bad guy!" evil, but in the interest of enacting vigilante justice and/or almost anarchic self-determination outside the system when the system fails.

So in 2024, your sympathy towards Magneto is inversely tied to your faith in the system to deliver fair and just outcomes. The more your faith in that has slipped, the closer you get to the position that Magneto is right.

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[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 31 points 2 months ago

Depending on the story magneto ranges from Hitler 2.0 to anti-hero. The better stories tend to be him as an anti-hero. It generally boils down to Xavier believing people are good and they will chose the right option if you set a good example. Magneto believes people are bastards and you have to force them into the right decision.

[–] phdepressed@sh.itjust.works 23 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Magneto's whole shtick is that he survived the holocaust. This made him a radical against discrimination. So when he sees the mutant minority starting to get the same treatment as Jews in Germany (dehumanizing propaganda, lists and "yellow stars") he's like "not this time" and decides to start fighting before things get concentration camp bad.

Professor X believes that regular humans and mutants can reach an understanding despite all the propaganda to the contrary. But if mutants on one side (magneto)attack then due to the powers only other mutants are really effective, both for stopping them and for showing that it's "not all mutants".

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[–] BigPotato@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

He just wanted freedom from subjugation for the mutants. Having survived the Holocaust, he had strong feelings about the government deciding they weren't people with equal protections.

He was akin to the Malcolm X to Charles's King.

[–] WraithGear@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I’m not super into comics so someone let me know if I’m off base here but…

Ok so the X men are stand ins for marginalized people. Their primary conflict is that they are demonized by society, even though they are a boon for society. Charles and Magneto attempt to solve this in different ways. Charles via working within the system, and appealing to saving their haters to prove they are good and restraining what makes them different. And Magneto is heavily militant in his defense of mutants against any who would harm them, and is big in not hiding who you are.

Now Magneto is villain coded so don’t take what the post said without a grain of salt. He does bad things. But these days he usually is given a sympathetic reason. And due to how comics and stories are told Charles Xavier will never succeed in his quest to prove mutants are not to be feared. (Especially when you have some kids who’s power is they turn into a literal nuclear bomb that will go off at any time for any reason… poor kid)

But this ties in with the rise in right wing authoritarian hate mobs

[–] BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)
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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 17 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Magneto is basically a racist. He thinks non-mutants are inferior and should be exterminated. How is he fucking right?

[–] NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago (2 children)

No he does not, especially if you're going with 90s Magneto. It's the whole reason Fabian Cortez tried to murder him.

He is however a zionist and wants mutants to have their own homeland separate from baseline humans.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 9 points 2 months ago

especially if you're going with 90s Magneto

Nearly all my X-Men knowledge comes from the 90's animated series and a few of the comics. He literally tries to wipe out humans and/or make everyone a mutant at least twice. He even acknowledges this in the new X-Men 97 series as he tries to atone for it and live up to Xavier's expectations.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

He is however a zionist and wants mutants to have their own homeland separate from baseline humans.

Magneto is more akin to Nelson Mandela than Ben Gurion, at least with respect to Genosha. He came in as a kind of terrorist-liberator and, after a revolutionary insurrection overthrew the apartheid regime, established it as a BRICS style unaligned state.

But then, because Western Writing, he launched a Hitler-esque plan for world conquest that got the mutant population eradicated as a result. The island has been repeatedly rebooted as this ostensibly safe haven for mutants, but typically becomes a giant death trap where the population is wiped out over and over again.

The moral of Magneto tends to be "Stop being radical, you're just going to get everyone killed". Strangely enough, this never seems to apply to the various secret societies and state agencies running around with the giant killer robots that are primarily responsible for these genocides.

I get the sense that Magneto inherited good-guy status just because using him as a rhetorical and physical punching bag has worn thin after 60 years.

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[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Magneto has repeatedly had turns of being extermonationist against regular humans, and even when he isn't he's still often portrayed as mutant nationalist, modelling his vision for Genosha off of Israel, which he has repeatedly stated his support of in a very "You lived through the logical conclusion of that shit personally, how are you THIS determined to still get it wrong‽"

Poison Ivy has turns of being an eco-fascist, and her more just being an anti-social eco-anti-hero now is often billed as being a direct result of her treatment at Arkham when before she wanted to actually kill everything but plants. Not even all humans, all everything that isn't either a plant or a plant symbiote, and while that would be am incredible spec-evo project, it would also make her the single most genocidal psychopath in earth's history assuming lichens don't achieve sapience to start making a contest of it.

For just wanting to save his wife, Mr. Freeze sure has a lot of arrests on his record involving trying to plunge gotham into a new ice age, which, just look at Extra History's series on the little ice age to get an idea of just how horrible doing that on purpose to a society is.

Stop whitewashing terrible people who just happen to even tangentially look like a cause you agree with.

That's how we get Joker being seen as justified because one too many people feel personally attacked for cat calling women to smile more and ....motherfucker I think I just figured out why the incels latched onto him so hard.

[–] Frog@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 months ago

Yes but from the very beginning, Eddie Brock's Venom would protect who they (their chosen pronouns) considered innocent. They would use extreme measures to do it though like killing a mugger. So from the start, he always tried to do good.

I would definitely put Deadpool in this category though. Deadpool was first introduced by taking out the X-men. A couple of miniseries of him going up against the Juggernaut, people asked more from him. The "merc with the mouth", which seemed like a villain rip off of Spider-man, turned to a psycho then to a good guy through a change of heart. His character changes with each new series.

[–] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Carnage redemption arc when?

[–] ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one 37 points 2 months ago (1 children)

When Carnage brutally murders a bunch of billionaires.

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[–] fosho@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago (8 children)

Reagan is popular to blame but this suggests it started before him.

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

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