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10000 passengers per hour (feddit.de)
submitted 9 months ago by sexy_peach@feddit.de to c/fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
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[-] errer@lemmy.world 137 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Even with single people in cars you can move wayyyy more than 100 people per hour in the top left.

Assume 25 mph speed and 30 feet between cars, each car crosses 30 feet in about a second. 3600 seconds in an hour, times 2 for both directions and you have 7200 people that can move on that little road.

Now add additional passengers…buses…it can move a decent amount more. There’s lots of reasons cars suck but let’s not make up math to prove the point.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 105 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It's not saying that the top row can support at most 100 people.

Just that if you have 100 people per hour, you need something like what's in the picture. The train tracks aren't being fully utilized in the top pic, either.

As an aside, you're forgetting that cars are ~15 feet long on average. So you've got an hour of traffic with consistently 1 car following distance, which is fairly unrealistic. Real world capacy of a lane is closer to 2k people per hour, or 4k both directions.

[-] errer@lemmy.world 33 points 9 months ago

Yeah and the big road below can hold WAY more than 10,000 too. The numbers here are all made up and it doesn’t really do a good job of making the point the creator wants to make.

[-] Pipoca@lemmy.world 19 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Yeah.

I think I count 23 lanes in the bottom pic.

Ignoring the effect of heavy vehicles and assuming a free flow speed of 70, the federal highway authority's numbers would be 2400 vehicles per lane or 55k vehicles per hour. Assuming an average occupancy of 1.5 people per vehicle, that's nearly 83k.

I'm having trouble finding actual sources right now for max rail capacity, but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_per_hour_per_direction claims 60-90k passengers per direction on 3.5 meter lanes for "suburban rail".

Although 83k people per hour is 41.5k people per rail track. Assuming a 360 person train like the Bombardier BiLevel Coach, that's only 115 train cars per hour per track. If each train has 11 cars, that's 10 trains per hour or a train every 6 min. Not really that unreasonable, and the tracks will look mostly empty unlike that monstrosity of a road.

[-] xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 9 months ago

The road in the bottom picture seems to be jammed. 23 lanes are no use if there's a bottleneck at the end.

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[-] TauZero@mander.xyz 4 points 9 months ago

That photo looks like the 26-lane wide Katy Freeway in Houston! I use the rule of thumb of 2000 pphpd (passengers per hour in peak direction) for a fully-loaded freeway lane from this much better-looking graphic we saw last time we discussed this question on lemmy. (Apparently this graphic is now the headliner on the pphpd wiki page!)

2000 pphpd per lane matches my own attempts to verify this value. I couldn't find traffic stats for Katy Freeway, but here are the stats for Manhattan river crossings: https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/manhattan-river-crossings-2016.pdf Specifically, the George Washington Bridge is a very busy bridge with 7 lanes in each direction and highly-optimized traffic density - constant traffic flow with no spacing in between - a good example of peak highway lane capacity IMO. It moves 290k vehicles per day, but more importantly 11k incoming vehicles during peak morning rush hour (page 10), which is 1600 vehicles per lane. The average occupancy is 1.74 (page 24, though not sure how that treats buses), so that's 2800 ppphd per lane.

GWB does have a lot of truck traffic though. The Holland Tunnel has 2 lanes in each direction, no trucks, constant traffic flow with no spacing, 2700 inbound vehicles during peak morning rush hour (page 10), and 1.22 occupancy (page 24), resulting in 1600 pphpd per lane.

So that's 2739*1.22 + 4860*1.41 + 11474*1.74 = 30k people crossing from New Jersey into Manhattan during the morning rush hour using the 2+4+7=12 lanes of the Holland+Lincoln tunnels and GWB or 2500 pphpd per lane. I believe that sufficiently approximates 13 lanes of Katy Freeway, which has no trucks and no buses.

Compare that to the 22k people transported from New Jersey into Manhattan during morning peak rush hour by PATH trains in two incoming tubes (https://www.panynj.gov/content/dam/path/about/statistics/2023-PATH-Hourly-Ridership-Report.pdf page 14, only shows turnstyle entries but almost everyone entering is travelling to Manhattan). And PATH trains look outright empty compared to crowd crush on NYC trains. Lexington Avenue Subway is like 32k pphpd for a single express track (https://new.mta.info/document/22126 page 5B-4, 25*1296 in 2002 and has gone higher since).

In conclusion, the numbers in this meme photo do not reflect full capacity, thus leading to questions and confusion, but the overall comparison is still valid: one half of a 26 lane highway has about the same capacity of ~30k pphpd for peak hour travel as one half of a 2-track railway.

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[-] bob_lemon@feddit.de 34 points 9 months ago

At 25mph, the safe distance between cars is closer to 60-70 feet. Add the length of the cars for another 15-20 feet and your throughput calculations drop by a factor of 2.5-3 already.

It gets worse once you start considering comparable velocities. Trains go way over 25mph.

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 21 points 9 months ago

Also assume that no one is turning onto or off of the road?

Theoretically the highway I can see outside my window could handle tens of thousands of passengers per hour moving at over 60mph. But for some odd reason when I look out my window on workday it's moving significantly less than 25 mph. Some days is not even moving at all.

[-] Adori@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Yeah but for long term growth is not ideal, the tracks will do a better job in long run.

No matter the math, trains move more people, faster and safely. What you should use for your argument is that it's easier and better to low capacity roads in rural areas (low population) than building trains to replace the car everywhere. Either way there is no argument against trains from city to city or a metro. Cars get out competed there.

[-] errer@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

I don’t disagree, but we shouldn’t be pulling numbers out of our asses that are orders of magnitude different from the real figures.

[-] WalrusDragonOnABike@kbin.social 6 points 9 months ago

Quick search gave this number:

Theoretical maximum saturation flow rate per lane (this will allow you to do quick calculations in your head to check reasonableness at big events): 1,900 vehicles per hour per lane

So the bottom would probably be more like 25K each way. Lightrail is only about 4-8k? Meanwhile a single subway lane each way could do more than that thing on the bottom left.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I'm guessing you found this source: https://www.mikeontraffic.com/numbers-every-traffic-engineer-should-know/

The number from that page he should actually be using is more like this one:

Planning level daily capacity of a road (Round numbers based on Level of Service D/E thresholds in HCM 6th Edition)

  • 2 lane (w/ left turn lanes): 18,300 vehicles per day

(Source: I'm a former traffic engineer.)

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[-] user224@lemmy.sdf.org 48 points 9 months ago

I really wish I could use those roads for transport using a bicycle. I just don't feel like being passed by a truck moving at 80km/h just a few centimeters away in a curve with bad visibility, potentially even with fog in the morning.

You can make multiple extra lanes for cars, but not a single lane for bicycles?

[-] thisfro@slrpnk.net 11 points 9 months ago

TBH, where I live, those 80km/h roads aren't as bad as you would think. Cars slow down before bends because they anticipate that a bicycle, hiker, tractor or whatever slow moving vehicle and usually pass them with decent space.

But that is only true for less frequented roads, if there is heavy oncoming traffic and save overtaking is not possible, people will still try to squeeze through and there separated bike lanes are really important.

[-] Microw@lemm.ee 45 points 9 months ago

You're making the right point, BUT pretty much every train service provider would add more parallel tracks if they increase the number of trains to a certain point, because they start getting in the way of each other

[-] Elbrazzio@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Well except in Germany

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 43 points 9 months ago

As always, the problem with commuter trains is the last mile. If you work in the city, there is probably some form of bus or subway, but if you work in an unwalkable suburb, you'll need an Uber for that last mile which cuts into the benefit.

[-] Serdan@lemm.ee 90 points 9 months ago

We shouldn't be building unwalkable suburbs

[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 33 points 9 months ago

We already did.

[-] thisfro@slrpnk.net 26 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

And continue to do so, that is what should get stopped.

[-] MustardCabbage@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

So we should continue catering to their needs, thereby encouraging the construction of more unwalkable suburbs?

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

There are a lot of things we shouldn't do that we already did.

[-] nal@lib.lgbt 38 points 9 months ago

that's not a problem with trains it's a problem with unsustainable land use

[-] Baku@aussie.zone 18 points 9 months ago

Yeah lol

"Nobody builds suburbs you can walk in without rolling an ankle or getting hit by a car" "Yeah man that's the fucking trains fault"

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[-] jessta@aus.social 17 points 9 months ago

@themeatbridge @sexy_peach Commuter driving has the same 'last mile' problem, but it's parking.

The photo doesn't include the $250 million worth of carparks for those 10,000 cars that has to exist at the other end of the highway.

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[-] moitoi@feddit.de 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The problem is the unwalkable suburb that doesn't make any sense. It never made sense either.

It's not only bad for commuting. It's a mess for groundwater, pollution of all type (noise, microplastics, air, etc.) It has an impact on the wildlife including reproduction, on plants, etc.

It's just a bad use of space? No, it's bad socially by isolating people. It creates urban traps. I will stop here otherwise I will continue on the fact it's a myth created by the capital...

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 9 months ago

surely you can bike 2 miles in the burbs? One of the upsides of suburbs being so painfully sprawly is that barely anyone lives there, so you shouldn't have a tremendous amount of traffic on those 2 miles to the train station.

And even if you'd fear for your life biking there now, it's not like you need to build bike paths along every little residential street to fix it, start with the largest most high-traffic roads and build your way down until people feel safe biking to the train station.

[-] PRUSSIA_x86@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Sure, but then you have to carry your bike with you on the train. There is no workable solution to suburbia that doesn't involve cars because it was designed and built around them. Unfortunately, they're now home to tens of millions of people, and any quick solution would most likely end up hurting a lot of them.

[-] puppy@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago

Bike parking at the train stations. You bike to the train station, lock the bike up, take the train, take the second bike from the destination train station, bike to the office. See videos on how the Dutch do it. Even with multiple bikes it's incredibly cheap in terms of money as well as climate impact compared to even the cheapest cars.

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[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 9 months ago

just park the bike???

y'all keep inventing problems that don't exist.

[-] tweeks@feddit.nl 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Well, in the Netherlands and at least some other EU countries most train stations have a bike rental system that works by just using a card to unlock the bike for a couple of Euros for 24 hours. So there is a possible solution.

Many people here use that system. It's also possible to buy a (second-hand) bike and park it at the station where you need it, if you'd like.

Edit: Didn't see the post below.. but exactly that.

[-] SuperCub@sh.itjust.works 5 points 9 months ago

Actually, you can leave a bike at the bike garage near the station or rent one on a monthly basis. That's what they do in Japan.

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[-] LeafOnTheWind@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Or just have a parking lot/garage, or bike the last mile...

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[-] Surreal@programming.dev 5 points 9 months ago

Why did it become unwalkable?

[-] Luci@lemmy.ca 5 points 9 months ago

Where I live, the train station is smack in the middle of all the big employers!!

There just isn't actual service to the station....

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[-] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Remember when Robert Moses intentionally made the parkways hostile to buses and trains? There's a bit in The Power Broker about how his engineers wanted to put trains in, or at least build the roads so it would be easy to do later. Moses said no.

[-] Cringe2793@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

We should consider comfort for the passengers though. Too often people only think of how many people can fit, they don't think if those same people should fit though.

[-] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 10 points 9 months ago

A train ride will always be more comfortable than being stuck in traffic.

[-] _padla_@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Have you ever ridden in an overcrowded Indian train?

[-] jasondj@ttrpg.network 7 points 9 months ago

Yeah, some parts of the world, overcrowded trains are a huge problem.

I used to ride commuter rail in Boston. 363 days out of the year it wouldn’t be terribly crowded. Maybe standing-room-only for the first couple stops during rush hour.

But those other two days…that’s when the pats and the Sox have their victory parades. May god have mercy on the souls of regular commuters who aren’t sports fans.

[-] Metatronz@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

The toilets in some Indian trains is a trip within themselves too. At least, in the one I took to northern India, so perhaps more rural.

Anyway, it was a literal hole in the floor of the train with bare tracks whizzing by your ass. Gotta say, that was an adventure I hadn't thought about in a long time.

Yes, you are defecating on the train tracks. Along those same tracks, some people were living their lives in little huts made from trash. Speaks for itself.

This was around 2008, I hope something improved, it broke my heart.

[-] bigschnitz@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

Not even that extreme, just an overcrowded train with someone who smells or is drunk is way worse than being in traffic. For plenty of women, someone who looks threatening can make a trip mega uncomfortable.

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[-] ThunderclapSasquatch@startrek.website 4 points 9 months ago

No fuck you car bad, unga dunga. Seriously though I appreciate the nuance here, public transportation still needs to be comfortable without cramming people in like cattle

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this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
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