this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
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Everybody knows that a lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on.

And the ongoing turmoil over Canada’s parliament recognizing former SS trooper Yaroslav Hunka highlights one of the most important reasons why.

Something that’s untrue but simple is far more persuasive than a complicated, nuanced truth — a major problem for Western democracies trying to fight disinformation and propaganda by countering it with the truth, and one reason why fact-checking and debunking are only of limited use for doing so.

In the case of Hunka, the mass outrage stems from his enlistment with one of the foreign legions of the Waffen-SS, fighting Soviet forces on Germany’s eastern front. And it’s a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

This history is complicated because fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi, just someone who had an excruciating choice over which of these two terror regimes to resist. However, the idea that foreign volunteers and conscripts were being allocated to the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht on administrative rather than ideological grounds is a hard sell for audiences conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide. And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp.

Canada’s enemies have thus latched on to these simple narratives, alongside concerned citizens in Canada itself, with the misstep over Hunka being used by Russia and its backers to attack Ukraine, Canada and each country’s association with the other.

According to Russia’s ambassador in Canada, Hunka’s unit “committed multiple war crimes, including mass murder, against the Russian people, ethnic Russians. This is a proven fact.” But whenever a Russian official calls something a “proven fact,” it should set off alarms. And sure enough, here too the facts were invented out of thin air. Repeated exhaustive investigations — including by not only the Nuremberg trials but also the British, Canadian and even Soviet authorities — led to the conclusion that no war crimes or atrocities had been committed by this particular unit.

But this is just the latest twist in a long-running campaign by the Russian Embassy in Ottawa, dating back even to Soviet times, when the USSR would leverage accusations of Nazi collaboration for political purposes as part of its “active measures” operations.

And given Moscow’s own history of aggression and atrocities during World War II and its aftermath, there’s a special cynicism underlying the Russian accusations. Russia feels comfortable shouting about “Nazis,” real or imaginary, in Ukraine or elsewhere, because unlike Nazi Germany, leaders and soldiers of the Soviet Union were never put on trial for their war crimes. Russia clings to the Nuremberg trials as a benchmark of legitimacy because as a victorious power, it was never subjected to the same reckoning. And yet, both before and after their collaborative effort to carve up eastern Europe between them, the Soviets and the Nazis had so much in common that it’s now illegal to point these similarities out in Russia.

Yet, it’s not just enemies of democracy that are subscribing to the seductively simple. Jewish advocacy groups in Canada have been understandably loud in their condemnation of Hunka’s recognition. But here, too, accusations risk being influenced more by misconception and supposition than history and evidence.

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center registered its outrage, noting that Hunka’s unit’s “crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented” — a statement that doesn’t seem to have any more substance than the accusation by Russia.

In fact, during previous investigations of the same group carried out by a Canadian Commission of Inquiry, Simon Wiesenthal himself was found to have made broad accusations that were found to be “nearly totally useless” and “put the Canadian government to a considerable amount of purposeless work.”

The result of all this is that otherwise intelligent people are now trying to outdo each other in a chorus of evidence-free condemnation.

In Parliament itself, Canadian Conservative MP Melissa Lantsman called Hunka “a monster.” Meanwhile, Poland’s education minister appears to have decided to first seek Hunka’s extradition to Poland, then try to determine whether he has actually committed any crime afterward. And the ostracism is now extending to members of Hunka’s family, born long after any possible crime could have been committed during World War II.

The episode shows that dealing with complex truths is hard but essential. Unfortunately, though, a debunking or fact-checking approach to countering disinformation relies on an audience willing to put in the time and effort to read the accurate version of events, and be interested in discovering it in the first place. This means debunking mainly works for very specific audiences, like government officials, analysts, academics and (some) journalists.

But most of the rest of us, especially when just scrolling through social media, are instead likely to have a superficial and fleeting interest, which means a lengthy exposition of why a given piece of information is wrong will be far less likely to reach us and have an impact.

In the Hunka case, commentary taking a more balanced view of the complex history does exist, but it’s rare, and when it does occur, it is by unfortunate necessity very long — a direct contrast to most propaganda narratives that are successfully spread by Russia and its agents. Sadly, an idea simple enough to fit on a T-shirt is vastly more powerful than a rebuttal that has to start with “well, actually . . .”

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now issued an apology in his own name over Hunka’s ovation too. However, any further discussion of the error has to be carefully phrased, as any suggestion that Canada is showing contrition for “honoring a Nazi” would acquiesce to the rewriting of history by Russia and its backers, and concede to allegations of Hunka’s guilt that have no basis in evidence.

It’s true that Hunka should never have been invited into Canada’s House of Commons. But that’s not because he himself might be guilty of any crime. Rightly or wrongly, on an issue so toxic, it was inevitable the invitation would provide a golden opportunity for Russian propaganda.

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[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The dude was Waffen-SS.

That is not only very much an elective organization, you have to really want it.

The dude was a fucking nazi.

[–] DeathWearsANecktie@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ridiculous how some are trying to obfuscate the man's involvement with Nazism. He joined a Nazi organisation, he's a Nazi. Nazis are bad and should not be allowed to escape justice. Call a pig a pig.

[–] baconisaveg@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

I'm not disagreeing with you, but going to church on Sunday does not make you a christofacist.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

There were 8.5 million members of the Nazi party. Should they have all gone to jail?

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you commit war crimes, then you go to jail. You have, you know, a trial. C'mon this has been sorted out a long time ago but you're acting like gosh darn how can this ever be solved.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

After reading more of this thread, you are either portraying your position absofuckinglutely terribly, or you are a Nazi apologist but when countered you meekly agree and say "that's my point". Nowhere do you actually make "your point", only when you're cornered.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The point I've been trying to make throughout this thread is that both the Nazis and the Soviets were terrible to the people of Eastern Europe, so the people on the ground were faced with a choice between two monsters. The fact that some of them chose the wrong side does not automatically make them bad people. That is also the point of the article OP posted.

The problem is that there are a lot of people who see the situation in absolutely black and white terms. There has to be a "good guy" and a "bad guy", and those who side with the "good guy" are good and those who side with the "bad guy" are bad. Since one of the sides here is Hitler, then obviously that means whoever was fighting against him must be the "good guys". It's not as simple as that. But of course, now that I've gone and said that, bam I go off into the "bad guy" category as far as those people are concerned.

I'd really like to see these comments where I'm supposedly being a Nazi apologist or a Nazi sympathizer. I'm pretty sure I've not said a single good thing about them, at least not as an ideology (I did object to the notion of jailing literally every member of the Nazi party after the war, which with the hindsight of history I think seems to have worked out okay. And you seem to agree with that with your "have a trial" point).

The Nazis were terrible. The Soviets were also terrible. And the people caught in between them at the time often had to choose one of those sides, without that hindsight of history to tell them which one would end up being the victors.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I'm sure there were some people that got caught between Waffen-SS and the Soviets and suffered because of that. This guy was not one of them. He was in Waffen-SS.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've only been speaking in generalities, I don't know the specifics of Hunka's case in particular.

People did get conscripted into the Waffen-SS. Apparently not Hunka, based on other comments, but simply "being in the Waffen-SS" doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Waffen-SS means open weapon carry nazi secret police. After the Nazi secret police got aggressive enough to start open carrying because they had outgrown the need for secrecy thanks to all the nazi sympathizers that bolstered them.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm not reading all that after reading through your other comments, but I did catch the what-what-whaaboutism. JFC back to what I said, have a trial. And you're back to absofuckinglutely terribly or Nazi apologist. I know which I've decided. Now go away.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

That's not how whataboutism works. Whataboutism is an attempt to excuse bad behaviour by pointing out that the "other side" does it too. I'm saying that both sides are bad. It's literally the opposite of whataboutism.

But you didn't read it, so.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

They are a giant nazi sympathizer.

[–] Taleya@aussie.zone 0 points 1 year ago

Speaking of obfuscation....

There is of course nuance in party membership. Ur examples are of course Schindler and Albert Goering. My aunt's father was actually conscripted into the military at 14 during the dying days of the reich.

But we're talking here about a dude who joined up with a nazi military division of his own free will when the war was in full healthy swing - a division that explicitly fought against his own people. He chose to join the invading forces. Fuck 'im.

[–] jcrm@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure. Why not.

It's more nuanced than that, but if you're going to reduce it to make your vague pro-Nazi point, then fuck off, yes throw them all in prison.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not making a pro-Nazi point. I'm making an anti-oversimplification point. The eastern front of World War II was a huge mess, you can't neatly divide it up between "good guys" and "bad guys."

Which is not saying that Nazis were good guys, obviously. That's the whole point. There weren't clear-cut "good guys." There were terrible people and awful people and people being forced to choose between those or die.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago

You are 100% full on nazi simping all over this thread.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No.

Most of them should have been/were lynched.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The answer to one genocide is not another genocide.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago

Tolerance of intolerance is intolerance.

Intolerance of intolerance is tolerance.

If a mob of fascists is trying to commit a genocide, the answer is 100% to wipe that fascist mob out of existence.

[–] Melkath@kbin.social -1 points 1 year ago

We can talk about how much times have changed.

We can talk about how Germany is no longer an adversary.

We can talk about how Russia is no longer an ally.

Dude is a nazi and got a standing ovation.

[–] fiat_lux@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

I apologise for butting into yet another country instance I am not part of, but no, I'm not letting nazi apologism stand.

He served in the 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division, a voluntary unit made up mostly of ethnic Ukrainians under Nazi command.

The division was formed in 1943. Not even all Ukrainians were allowed in it because only the Galicians were 'Aryan-like' enough.

It was formed after all the ghettos inside Lviv, Galicia's main city, and Ternipol, in this old man's home oblast, were built and had been running for years. It was formed after Jews, who were 44% of Ternipol's population, were dragged from their homes to be publicly shamed, beaten and evicted in the pogroms. It was formed after the Final Solution began. It was formed after mass deportations, slave labour, after the ill, elderly or orphaned were shot in the streets of the place he lived. It was formed after the mass graves of all those victims and more were exhumed and their bodies burned in open-air pits.

This man had functional eyes and ears at the very least, because the Nazis did not like people with disabilities, and he knew what he was signing up for because he was living in the middle of it. Every major town surrounding his birthplace had ghettos and were already sending people by train to the death camps. He didn't choose a charitable hypothetical peaceful Ukrainian autonomy, he and 53,000 other people volunteered to fight for the new unit of an army who were very publicly killing and torturing the majority of the people around him.

And, this wasn't about a Ukrainian group allied to the Nazis to achieve long-term independence for Ukrainians. They were voluntary Nazis under direct Nazi control fighting for greater Nazi control in countries outside of Ukraine. This man could have changed allegiance at any point if he had been naive and somehow swindled into committing atrocities for Nazis instead of Ukrainian Independence. Atrocities like the Huta Pieniacka massacre where his division committed 500 murders of civilians by grenading the town. Where, assuming he was with his unit at the time and not in hospital, he murdered civilians too.

He joined at 18, by choice.

According to Hunka, his reason for enlisting was following the call of the Ukrainian Central Committee to fight for the idea of "Unified Ukraine". - his wiki page

If it was about Ukrainian independence, why were they fighting the Yugoslav Partisans and Slovak Partisans in their countries? People who were actually fighting for independence instead of doing it via Nazis.

Do not give Nazis the benefit of the doubt or the ability to hide behind hypothetical post-rationalised stories. This is how Naziism becomes permitted.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It seems some time spent learning would help understanding the nuance here. But this entire conversation has been godwinned.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Hello? Hello? Fucking Godwinned? They were willing participants in a literal genocide perpetrated by Hitler.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And every single person involved was fully aware of every single detail, supported all of it, and had no reservations or other reasons for playing one side against the other?

"They" are millions of diverse individual people. Not some sort of uniform Borg-like monolith. Some of them were evil racist scum, some of them were just trying to desperately figure out which option available to them was least likely to get them and everyone they loved killed. Given what the Soviet side got up to this was not a straightforward choice.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

They were collaborators in the murder of 11 million people, 4 million of the people they claimed to represent. You don't get to claim ignorance. You get to wear that. Hunka is scum, a betrayer, as is every other like him.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don’t get to claim ignorance.

Not in hindsight, obviously. But when they were making the choice to join? Not so obvious. We have a huge advantage in being able to crack open history books and see how things ultimately turned out. For the people living in that time and place not so much.

Even now the history books are often not so good. The Soviets massacred vast swaths of people and did their own round of genociding, but that doesn't get called out so much because Stalin was an "Ally." For the people on the ground, they were trapped between two monsters and it was hard to tell which was worse.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not in any sight. They were collaborators with a genocidal force. Their actions gave room for the Nazis to murder millions of their own people. You trying to find grey area in this is incredibly suspicious.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And if they'd collaborated with the Soviets, they would also have been collaborators with a genocidal force.

You trying to find grey area in this is incredibly suspicious.

Sure, here's the bit where you declare me a Nazi sympathizer. I was expecting that to come along eventually.

You don't think there was a grey area here? Stalin was on the side of the saints? Or maybe this, like all of human history, is a bit more complicated than a simple good/evil dichotomy.

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are looking for grey area in the Holocaust. You are at best a nazi sympathizer, yes.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm looking for a grey area in World War II.

It's really not very hard to find them there. Again, was Stalin a good guy?

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Within the context of WW2 he was part of the Allies. Were the Allies the bad guys?

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You think simply joining the Allies just magically makes you "good"? Not your actions?

[–] grte@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago

Were the Allies the bad guys? That's what you're talking about here. Were the other allied powers then wrong to ally themselves with the Soviet Union against Germany? Was it wrong of us to do that? Was Germany not a bad enough threat to justify that in your opinion?

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, fighting Soviets does not make you a Nazi, joining the Nazis makes you a Nazi.

We can discuss the nuances of "voluntarily" joining a unit of an occupying army, but the fact is he joined, and I've seen about as much evidence of his regret towards that as I have of specific atrocities that he or his unit committed. So, he most definitely is a Nazi, but we don't know whether or not he's done anything particularly evil.

[–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's also this: If he's 96 in 2023, he was 18 in 1945. In other words, he was a stupid teenaged kid trying to figure out whether Hitler or Stalin was worse, in an environment where his access to reliable information about what was going on may have been limited.

Was he a Nazi? Yes, he was a Nazi. Was he in any position of authority among the Nazis? Unlikely, at that age. Is he culpable of war crimes? If he directly participated in them, yes. Would justice be served by hauling him into court at this late date? Depends on what, exactly, he did.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Exactly. Furthermore, the man has lived in Canada for many decades now. I think the overriding question should be simple: has he promoted Nazi ideology in that time since?

I honestly don't know, I'm not hugely invested in this story. But the impression I have is that the answer is no.

[–] MrFlagg@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago