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submitted 8 months ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/europe@feddit.de
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[-] filister@lemmy.world 58 points 8 months ago

You know far-right political parties are on the rise in times of economical hardships. And now you have pretty much good conditions for such parties to thrive. The cost of living is increasing every day, the middle class is getting squeezed and their disposable income is getting lower, rents and real estate prices are almost at historic heights.

In such times people are desperately looking for a scapegoat and someone to blame, and those parties are giving them exactly that. They have always been in the opposition, so they feel they are guilt free for the current situation. And people being the irrational beings they are, are looking for a saviour in such "alternative" parties.

[-] fossisfun@lemmy.ml 32 points 8 months ago

The worst thing is that right-wing ideals are opposed to what many voters think they are voting for.

Right-wing parties may claim to support the working class, but in reality they are in favour of increasing privatisation (e. g. Afd wants to discontinue the public broadcasters) and private profits and enlarging the economic divide between the rich and the poor.

I can't believe that people continue to vote for the very same centre-right and right-wing parties (CDU/CSU, FDP, etc.) that have been in power for the last decades in Germany and are directly responsible for the continous downfall of (public) services, like the dreadful state of the two-class healthcare system (rich people and civil servants have private healthcare, everyone else relies on underfunded and mismanaged public healthcare).

To me it seems like people are voting blindfolded. People desperately need more education in my opinion, which is why I also put blame on the (public) media for their often superficial and sensationalist reporting and lack of insightful explanations of current events.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 21 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The scapegoat thing is a big part of it, but the other problem is that there is no credible "working class" left party left in the German political spectrum.

The SPD abandoned social democracy long ago, under Schröder. The Greens were in a government coalition with the SPD at that time and also turned big time neoliberal. These days they'll form coalitions with anyone only so they can get into government. Their environmentalism is mostly feel good easing of ecological conscience for people who can afford a brand new electric SUV, at the expense of people who can't. Their "leftism" is pretty much limited to some bickering over "gender neutral" language. The "Left" party is plagued by the typical infighting problem of any left movement, also they are stuck up the arse of Vladimir Putin, a fascist dictator, of all people, so where is their credible leftism? Often mentioned by right wingers is also the heritage of the Left being the successor of East Germany's one and only party, but pretty much every German political party has some less than pretty heritage left over from past German dictatorships, this is only the most recent party having such a problem.

[-] Sodis@feddit.de 11 points 8 months ago

Well, if you look at the Ampel, the Greens seem to be the only party, that still cares about climate change. "Climate Chancellor" Scholz always supports the FDP when it comes to policies against climate change. Just take a look on the law on heating, how it changed from the original one proposed during the coalition talks. The Greens had to heavily compromise on it several times, because they received no SPD support for their stance. Now the law is a joke compared to the initial one. You can definitely charge them with not standing up for the necessary policies, but not for them not trying.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 5 points 8 months ago

Scholz was never a "climate chancellor" He has always been an advocate for big money, he even is most likely personally involved in the cum ex tax evasion scheme. The Greens also give little to zero shits about people of lower income, which makes them easy targets for hate and drivel by AFD and friends (this includes CDU/CSU and the entire Springer media conglomerate). Not that those have any interest in helping low income people, either, but they are seeding hatred amongst them in order to farm votes.

[-] taladar@feddit.de 7 points 8 months ago

The Greens also give little to zero shits about people of lower income

Maybe but that is still quite a bit more than the parties further on the right.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 0 points 8 months ago

That's not difficult, just don't outright hate poor people and you're better than them.

[-] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

Well, if you look at the Ampel, the Greens seem to be the only party, that still ~~cares~~ pretends to care about climate change.

FIFY

[-] Haven5341@feddit.de 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The scapegoat thing is a big part of it, but the other problem is that there is no credible “working class” left party left in the German political spectrum.

At least in East-Germany people simply may not want a left party. They are voting far-right because they are far-right / neo-Nazi themselves.

Auto-translated:

The study also found a high level of approval for right-wing extremist statements in the eastern German states. Chauvinistic and xenophobic statements were rejected by only a minority of respondents, the project leaders emphasized. Elements of neo-NS ideology were not expressed openly to the same extent, but anti-Semitic and Social Darwinist statements also met with approval - a third of the population agreed with them completely or in part. The approval is pronounced in the German states of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia, he said. "Here, the potential for extreme right-wing and neo-Nazi parties to find voters is thus particularly high. One in two wants a 'strong party' that embodies the 'Volksgemeinschaft' as a whole. Instead of pluralistic diversity of interests, a völkisch community is desired," Brähler explained. Decker added: "Our study shows that currently many people in the eastern German states do not want more democratic participation and the safeguarding of basic democratic rights, but rather the apparent security of authoritarian statehood."

According to the survey, satisfaction with democracy as it functions in everyday life is weak. Not even half of the population feels that they are part of it. This corresponds with the high level of political deprivation: Two-thirds consider it pointless to be politically active, and hardly anyone believes they have any influence on the government. This is matched by the fact that, next to authoritarian aggression, the conspiracy mentality is the most widespread element of the authoritarian syndrome. "So we observe a pronounced foreignness with democracy, it is not understood by many as something of its own," adds Dr. Johannes Kiess, deputy director of EFBI, who was involved in the study. These values have remained constant for about 20 years.

The longing for the GDR is pronounced, two-thirds share it. Three quarters felt themselves to be East Germans. However, many also felt German and a citizen of the Federal Republic, so several identities can exist in parallel. Only half count themselves among the winners of German unity, while a third count themselves among the losers. This retrospective view of the GDR is related not least to the desire for a one-party dictatorship, as illustrated by the high level of agreement with the demand for "a single strong party that embodies the national community." These results show that extreme right-wing parties with their ideological offerings have numerous points of contact with the breadth of the population. Consequently, most AfD supporters have extreme right-wing attitudes.

Source: EFBI Policy Paper 2023-2: Authoritarian Dynamics and the Dissatisfaction with Democracy | University of Leipzig

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 3 points 8 months ago

Of course, a good percentage of the AFD voters are actual Nazis and lost causes, but the thing is that an increasing number of people aren't voting at all because the existing political landscape doesn't have anything credible to offer. Due to the 5% cut-off for getting into parliament, voting for a small party is frequently seen as wasting a vote, which exacerbates the problem if none of the big parties are seen as deserving a vote. With fewer people voting, all it needs is every Nazi out there to go and vote AFD to create a scary high percentage of votes for them.

[-] Haven5341@feddit.de 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

an increasing number of people aren’t voting at all

That seems wrong. At least in Thuringia, Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt (the states mentioned in the paper) voter turnout has been quite stable the last 20 years.

A quick search leads to:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/281790/umfrage/wahlbeteiligung-bei-den-landtagswahlen-in-thueringen/

https://www.wahlen.sachsen.de/landtagswahl-historie-eckdaten.html

https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/3179/umfrage/wahlbeteiligung-bei-den-landtagswahlen-in-sachsen-anhalt-seit-1990/

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

Seems to vary a bit regionally, also there seems to have been a recent uptick that I wasn't aware of.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 6 points 8 months ago

The Greens had like something around 10% at that time. I think you highly overestimate the influence they had. They get some brownie points in the coalition papers and then they agree to carry the points of the SPD. That's how coalitions work in Germany.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 6 points 8 months ago

If you look at how currently the FDP is holding the government hostage, the Greens could very well have done much more under the Schröder government, had they only wanted to. They just didn't.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 3 points 8 months ago

I'm not sure I want the Greens to be more like the FDP.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de -2 points 8 months ago

They already are, just in a worse way.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 2 points 8 months ago

Username checks out I guess, but I'm not a fan of those constant shit takes.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

It's not a shit take, the Greens are neoliberal. They are an FDP for people who want to ease their ecological conscience by driving a brand new electric SUV to the organic supermarket to buy an organic soy latte packed in single use plastic for only 3.99€.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 4 points 8 months ago

It is. It's downright moronic and typical anti Greens propaganda bullshit.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

When the Greens were a part of the Schröder government, they took part in instating the worst social cutbacks in post WW2 German history. Since then, there is little reason to believe they have changed

They will form a coalition with anyone who offers them a place in government.

If you can afford a house of your own, and putting solar panels on top of it or changing the heating system just so, or buying a brand new electric car, they'll happily subsidise you for being already pretty well off. If you can't afford something like that, no subsidies for you, but feel free to pay the increased energy prices you dirty polluter of the environment.

If they ever manage to propose something that benefits less wealthy people, they'll roll over the very instant their coalition partners say no. All while one of those coalition partners is showing how it's done by shamelessly blocking virtually anything that goes against their own agenda with zero repercussions. The social side of the Greens (or what little is left of it) is pretty much toothless.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 2 points 8 months ago

You're just further proving my point. But whatever, have fun with your AfD Nazis.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Don't worry, I won't have fun with the Nazis. As I remarked somewhere else, I regret that the German political spectrum is missing credible parties on the left. This has unfortunately led to a right shift of the entire political spectrum, which has enabled the AFD Nazis to gain popularity in the first place. Of course, shitting on the less wealthy parts of the population by pretty much all major parties does help with increasing that popularity even further, because they appeal specifically to those parts of the population, of course with the intent of shitting on them later.

But as you keep proving, people really don't bother with looking into what their favourite political parties are actually doing, or have done in the past, and prefer to let themselves get blinded by advertisements and Sunday speeches. If you don't want to go as far back as the Schröder government, just look at this let them eat cake moment of your beloved Greens. Things like that are why I think they haven't changed since then. If they were to change, they'd have to prove it. And as long as people keep voting for them instead of calling them out for being a bunch of neoliberal sociopaths, they won't change.

Unless a credible left alternative manifests itself, that actually improves conditions for the less wealthy, I unfortunately don't see much of a chance of avoiding a Nazi shitshow, because the political spectrum will continue drifting further to the right.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

Yet you're here, spewing the same bullshit propaganda points of the AfD trolls. Makes it really hard to take you seriously. Those points have been disproven countless times already, it just gets old and tiresome, especially when they get repeated a hundred times each and every single day on political topics. But sure, keep on going. The matter of the fact remains that they're the only party left worth voting for in the Bundestag, especially if you actually care about the future.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

Which points have been disproven?

My main point on the Greens still being a neoliberal shitshow that doesn't care about poor people was proven by a Green politician himself, who brazenly demanded from low income people to lower their living standard in order to be able to afford rising energy prices, while boasting about how he upgraded his own house to depend less on fossil energies. This, of course, isn't all that difficult to afford when you're living on a cushy state prime minister's salary. A party that tolerates people who not only think like that, but also make those thoughts a public statement, isn't really much better than the FDP.

The matter of the fact remains that they’re the only party left worth voting for in the Bundestag

This rhetoric of there being no alternatives is getting old. It's the same old narrative the SPD and Greens used when taking the axe to social security and workers' rights under Schröder.

Of course, the other parties are even worse, but that doesn't make the Greens any good. And the entire political spectrum being a steaming pile of shit is what is driving voters into the arms of the Nazis, because not everyone has a moral compass strong enough to prevent them from voting for such despicable people.

especially if you actually care about the future

Oh yes, a bright future in which the lower classes have to lower their living standard in order to pay for the upper classes greenwashing theirs.

[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

All of them.

[-] filister@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yes, the biggest problem is that CSU/CDU and SDP are more or less the same, then you have the greens, far-right parties and the left, so there is not much sensible alternative to the current status quo.

Like the level of digitalization in Germany is pathetic, lack of affordable housing, excessive bureaucracy. I have the feeling Germany is stuck in the past, with no clear vision about the future that would be even more IT and AI centered.

Just look at VW, BMW, Mercedes, how they are scrambling to adapt to the new reality when vehicles would be filled with new tech and how ancient and sluggish and problematic their infotainment systems are with broken or not working OTA updates, etc., and how behind they are behind Tesla and the Chinese companies. Their sales crashed really hard in their most important market, China and their EV propositions are still mediocre and lackluster at best.

The mentality of the companies in Germany is super conservative, there are very few and mostly IT companies that offer hybrid ways of working and adopt English as their official language.

Taxes are crushing the middle class and salaries are not rising with the same pace as the productivity and GDP per capita.

Not to mention that Germany will soon face a demographic crisis which will put additional strain on the pension system.

[-] geissi@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

The Greens [...] also turned big time neoliberal

This is not the first time I hear this claim but so far nobody has made any effort to really support it.
What specifically makes the Greens "neoliberal"?

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

When they joined the coalition with SPD in the Schröder government, they went all in with free market ideology and happily supported wholesale slashing of social security and workers' rights and sweeping privatisation of the public sector. They haven't really gone back from that since. Most of their subsidies programmes to incentivise more environmentally friendly technology are furthering the redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top, because in order to qualify for those subsidies, you need to be wealthy enough to buy something pretty damn expensive in the first place. This mindset was best portrayed by the Green prime minister of Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Kretschmann, during the energy price crisis in 2022, when he advised poor people to stop showering and using a washcloth instead to save money on energy bills, while at the same time boasting how he himself had upgraded his house with new heating in order to become independent from fossil energy.

[-] geissi@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

they went all in with free market ideology and happily supported wholesale slashing of social security and workers’ rights and sweeping privatisation of the public sector

Ah yes, implementing neoliberal policies under Schröder I really depended on the 47 Greens that held 7% of the seats of the 14th Bundestag.

This mindset was best portrayed by the Green prime minister of Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Kretschmann

Kretschmann who is among the most conservative members of his party is your prime example for green policy?

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

It wasn't only the 47 in the Bundestag, it was the party leadership that set this agenda, and the party tolerating it. The same applies to Kretschmann. The party tolerates someone with his mindset acting on its behalf.

[-] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 11 points 8 months ago

Can somebody shed some light on which sort of immigration is causing an increased support to this party? Are we talking of legal economic immigrants from e.g. the EU, illegal immigrats from wherever, or war refugees? If it's refugees, where from?

I'm just trying to understand what's driving this change. I have family in the UK and a lot of the anti-EU sentiment around Brexit seemed to arise from the perceived effect of an influx of legal immigrants from the Eastern bloc of the EU.

[-] Hubi@feddit.de 36 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

It's mostly just the fear of immigrants in general and populist right wing stuff like "they take out jobs", "they will replace us" and such. It's general xenophobia against all kinds of people, be they eastern European, from the Balkans or Mediterranean.

Ironically, studies have shown time and time again that the areas with the highest concentration of AfD-voters are also the ones with the least amount of immigration. Adding to that, the AfD has a very large social media presence and there are a ton of people spreading fear, propaganda and, to a large part, Russian disinformation. They always make the most outrageous claims and offer the most simple solutions that have no basis in reality. Some people are unhappy with rising prices and stagnating economy and are blaming it on the "new" government that hasn't had a chance to clean up after 16 years of conservative Christian rule and was elected in the middle of multiple global crises.

[-] wdx@feddit.de 11 points 8 months ago

The old tale of Schrödingers Immigrants.

Stealing our jobs while simultaneously living off welfare.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

that hasn’t had a chance to clean up

...might want to add that with the Liberal party being a part of the government, there is no capability to clean up this mess even if the government wanted to, because the liberals will block anything that isn't tax cuts for big business.

The whole situation is also a result of the blatant failure of the entire political system to get anything useful done. It looks increasingly like the final years of the Weimar Republic.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 5 points 8 months ago

It's the good old fOrEiGnErS bAd narrative. They phrase it as "illegal" migration, though, because phrasing it more bluntly would be illegal in Germany for historical reasons.

[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 8 months ago

The fear of all kind of non white immigration. like all far right parties they arw strongest in areas with low or no immigration though

[-] Nacktmull@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

From what I can tell, not actual immigration but irrational fear of immigration and also a good portion of racism is causing support for AfD.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago

All immigration, but if they say that out loud people will call them fascists and there's nothing that makes a fascist more upset than getting called a fascist before they think they can largely ignore any social consequences which normally would come with that distinction.

[-] the_wise_wolf@feddit.de 2 points 8 months ago

I think the answers others have given you definitely apply to the very far right voters. They are against all form of immigration. But that doesn't explain the AFD's rise in popularity. So I'm going to talk about the more moderate rightwing people here. There is a lot of immigration into Germany, EU migrants and legal, as well as illigal immigration from outside the EU. Plus Ukrainian refugees. Most people on the right don't mind EU migrants as well as Ukrainian refugees. Ukrainian refugees btw. are mostly women and children. Legal migrants from outside the EU are more complicated, and I'm sure there are various levels of acceptance. The real problem though are illegal immigrants, mostly from the middle east and Africa. They are mostly men with poor education and in many areas the infrastructure to accommodate them are at their limits. It doesn't help that these places are neglected and violence does break out at some of them every now and then. These stories obviously spread on social media like wildfire.

[-] brainrein@feddit.de 2 points 8 months ago

It’s the immigration of people with darker skin color that Germans don’t like. Nobody ever talks about EU-immigrants. Or Ukrainian refugees. The media don’t mention them, the politicians don’t propose laws to give them a hard time here. It’s all about African, Afghan, Syrian, and even the quite well integrated people with Turkish roots.

[-] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Nobody ever talks about EU-immigrants.

There are at least a couple of cringe share pics going around WhatsApp. AfD is heavily in Putins pocket.

edit: actually meant to quote that part:

Or Ukrainian refugees.

[-] trollercoaster@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

The typical AFD voter doesn't care about such nuances like skin colour. For them it's all foreigners and foreigners bad.

[-] autotldr@lemmings.world 7 points 8 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


The far-right, anti-immigration Alternative für Deutschland has declared itself a “major all-German party” after winning its biggest ever vote share in a western German state.

Political analysts and politicians themselves were quick to blame the actions of the central government for the poor showing, with dissatisfaction expressed over everything from its building heating reforms to the cost of living crisis and post-pandemic labour shortages.

The political future of Nancy Faeser, the interior minister who ran as the main candidate for the SPD in Hesse, was in doubt after the party’s dismal performance there, even as Scholz said he would stand behind her.

Manfred Güllner, the head of the Forsa polling institute, attributed the far right’s success to “the huge alienation between the governing parties in Berlin and the many normal working people”.

In polling, 21% of people in Bavaria said migration was the most important issue in deciding how they voted; and this was the case for 18% in Hesse.

Markus Söder, the head of the Christian Social Union, which has ruled in Bavaria for decades and secured the most votes, with 37% – albeit the party’s historically worst result – said voters had sent an “alarm signal” to Berlin.


The original article contains 502 words, the summary contains 200 words. Saved 60%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[-] EarMaster@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

The good thing is that the party will soon split up because they all want to be number one...

this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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