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this post was submitted on 21 Apr 2025
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It's my go-to way of speaking to people now too. I will either use just their name or use non gender pronouns. I figure I will avoid misgendering by not gendering.
For the better part of 30 years I have used a non-gendered language when possible. I was elated to find that "they" was originally, 13th century, a single pronoun instead of plural. I have probably used "one" way more times than is healthy.
~30 years ago I was living in/near Hillcrest, San Diego. Gay, trans, drag and everything else. I was online and people's genders were frequently unknown. In 1993 we already had the issues that On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.. Now we have AI which has no gender pronoun, I'm voting for "hal".
Point is that avoiding gendering text has been and will continue to be the safer option for general purpose writing. Some people will get bent out of shape that you didn't use gender specific language because the Narcissism of Small Differences means they must see you as the enemy even if you agree with them on 99% of things. Trying to have a generally non-discriminatory pronoun policy? That's a paddling. Your good intentions must be stopped because they aren't pure enough.
It sucks. Instead of focusing on the slander used by hate speech and the remediation sought by the one who was wronged we are totally lost in the weeds and focused on if we used the right three letters because avoiding the wrong three wasn't enough. It's thought police with the best of intentions but it's still thought police.
I do the same, but if someone's gender is known it's really not hard to use one of their preferred pronouns.
I don't think that's being the 'thought police' and it's certainly not something to focus on instead of hate speech, we can do both.
And figuring out their preferred pronouns isn't always easy. Can you trust the news source to have gotten it right? You end up getting stalkerish and seeing if they have made a public statement on their pronouns and you have to make sure it's current because gender can be fluid and maybe it changed since the story broke. And do you need to go revise your previous posts and comments to update the current status? Or do you go with evergreen and neutral because you definitely don't want someone digging through your history and seeing something different from whatever is current and then jumping on the cancel wagon without checking the calendar to see if it was appropriate at the time.
This isn't as simple as a lot of people want it to be. Going neutral isn't a slight. It's not misgendering. It's a way to avoid accidentally making an error even with the best of intentions.
My old roommate was trans. They went through multiple gender identities before settling on that. And every post I made mentioning them is still clean because I went with the gender neutral before they had ever made their first change.
usually the pronouns are listed somewhere or you ask
There's a reason many trans spaces in Lemmy require listed pronouns, it removes the guesswork and you can reference inline.
If you're using gendered pronouns for most cis people but then specifically degendering trans people it's going to eventually rub people the wrong way. People aren't going to care if you make an error while being well intentioned, especially if you ask for more information and correct yourself going forward.
Uhm. Hey, I know you are well meaning and I'm only saying this to inform, not to call out, shame or attack.
But most trans people deeply dislike what you're doing, it's called degendering and it's not an appropriate or respectful way to refer to us.
I understand you are worried about saying the wrong thing, but this is a way to deny trans people their identity but talking around it. It's extremely noticeable and as someone who has attended more than a few trans support groups, it's dehumanizing and upsetting. Just as non-binary folk use they/them, binary trans folk use she and him. We have one correct way to refer to us, and apart from sentance where you are referring to a group, "they" is not a safe one size fits all.
Again, I say this respectfully in effort to inform. You seem well intending, but I implore you to reconsider.
Like I replied below,
If y'all gonna have a problem with using neutral terms then you will have to live with being offended because it's not fair if we can't just use your name.
"It feels like people are purposely making it impossible to be respectful to everyone...." Yeah by ignoring simple social cues (or a written article) that would have allowed them to correctly and respectfully refer to another person, if they would have had the energy to allow a single additional neuron to fire off in there.
"...I will go with offending the gendered people." You know everyone here can see your previous posts right? Where you correctly gender Trump, Musk, and probably every other cicgendered person without having any trouble. But nice edgy touch.....
I'm not talking to them in person, and they are not ambiguous. I was speaking from the point of not knowing the person on a level where it is public knowledge or personal knowledge. Nice try, trying to make this a personal attack.
I wasn't trying to start a flame war, honestly. It was just clear from the post that "she" was a "she/her"
You don't need to 'other' people who aren't requesting it. Do no harm.
They/them feels just as wrong to some people with gendered identities as some people with non-binary identities feel with gendered pronouns. Especially if they are trans and binary, because it takes a lot to get to the point that people will correctly gender you.
What I'm saying is, you might feel like you're not misgendering, but if someone is binary and you use a non-binary pronoun, you are misgendering.
Strong disagree. Using 'they/them' when you're generally unsure about a person's gender isn't misgendering.
I'm a binary trans woman. If someone is generally unsure about my gender, because it can be ambiguous from time to time, they/them when referring to me is perfectly acceptable. I would suggest most other people are fine with they/them in this instance as well.
Pronouns can be quite a minefield to navigate, especially for those not used to using they/them when all they've ever known is binary terms growing up.
Speaking as an 'elder' trans person, some pronouns in use, which are just as valid as mine!, are genuinely difficult to remember because there are so many of them. I'm talking about the ones that aren't part of the English language in common use. I default to 'they/them' in those instances because using the person's assigned gender at birth would be genuinely hurtful; I don't want to hurt someone.
I feel very much that our own, gender diverse, community is driving those outside of it away by being so strict with/overt policing of pronouns, that those who aren't gender diverse find the whole 'pronoun' thing too complicated, then either refuse to engage with us or deliberately misgender because its easier. This is especially true for older conservative cis people.
Thank you for stating your own personal preference. I'll try to make a note of it.
But ... is that automatically anyone else's preference? My friend Sandra prefers she/her, and rejects the they/them as it's apparently confusing.
I'd ask the two of you to figure it out but its not my business.
No, and that's the really hard part. Most would agree that 'they/them/they're' (and so on) is generally safer than a gendered pronoun if unsure. It's also really hard when someone's pronouns, again for those in the back: are just as valid as mine, aren't ones in common use.
There's a non-exhaustive list here: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/incomplete-list-gender-pronouns/
It's much easier with friends, as you'll generally get into a groove eventually. However, is less so with strangers.
Even asking someone's pronouns could be met with confused looks from time to time. Context matters. If I asked for the pronouns of a farmer with a thousand yard stare and sun-kissed leather skin to match in my part of the world, despite growing up in the country, I'd probably be punched in the face. 😂
Yeah as you can see this is all a confusing minefield, can't blame people for using the safe choice, they-them.
I literally said "some people", because there are certainly some who don't care if people call them "they". Like I straight up acknowledged that in my first sentence. My point was that it isn't going to jive with everyone, and that maybe people should reconsider that safety blanket of "non gendering".
How is "just using they/them for everyone" not "misgendering because it's easier"? Because asking someone what their preferred pronouns are is too hard for many
I don't disagree with your first statement.
However I do disagree with your second statement, quoted above, because it's so broad that even people trying to do the right thing, or least harmful thing, can be accused of misgendering or be policed by others for simply trying to be inclusive.
Whilst a technicality, it really rubs non-gender diverse people the wrong way, and makes it harder for gender diverse people, myself included, to drive broader acceptance of us in the community when all we're known for is telling others they're 'wrong' when they accidentally mess up a pronoun or three.
There's a very fine balance to be struck between being inclusive, and being correct.
If someone gets a person's gender wrong accidentally because they were unsure, that shouldn't, and doesn't in my view, count as misgendering simply because it was a misunderstanding.
However if someone deliberately, or maliciously refers to someone as their assigned gender at birth, that's misgendering which should absolutely be called out and derided.
Its true, some people are super sensitive and look for reasons to be offended, its best to just avoid them rather then placate that type of person. Its not really about pronoun usage.
It literally is about prounons. It's super shitty to dismiss another's identity because you found it troublesome to respect the correct way to address them.
I find that overly sensitive people are generally not worth my time, If someone cant get over the use of gender neutral pronouns, they are looking for a reason to be offended, the issue isnt the person using gender neutral pronouns. You can't just change other people's vocabulary because it might be offensive to someone. Its the same with people who don't like cussing, that's their fucking problem not mine.
If someone tells me to use a certain pronoun I will, but my default has been "they" for a long time now. Gendered pronouns in general are a terrible idea, linguistically at the very least.
So if I'm not sure don't use pronouns?
Then we can't win, it feels like people are purposely making it impossible to be respectful to everyone by always having an issue. So I will go with offending the gendered people.
I don't believe gendering ever has, or ever will be, required for communicating in the English language. Regardless of my personal beliefs regarding trans people, which are still unknown, I ask you to convince me otherwise.
I'm one of those people that prefers to have my name used instead of she/her or they/them, and it works quite well once people shake the cobwebs off their brains.
However, living your life as "he" while knowing you are "she" is full of moments that hurt. The English language may not require the distinction, but in practice it is how we define people. Why would you continue to hurt someone by using a pronoun that isn't what they've described themselves as? It's like someone who has gotten your name wrong, and no matter how often you correct them, they continue to call you the wrong name. Except it isn't just one person, it's a class of people that is filled with both those that hate your existence and those who refuse to understand it.