this post was submitted on 20 May 2024
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Just for the record, there's an Iranian province called East Azerbaijan, which is not the same as Azerbaijan.


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Pro-Russian Telegram Channels:

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https://t.me/aleksandr_skif ~ DPR's former Defense Minister and Colonel in the DPR's forces. Russian language.
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[–] DanicaTheRebel@hexbear.net 25 points 6 months ago (9 children)

Serious question, but why aren't we doing the crab-party for Ebrahim Raisi? Sure he was against the west and the Iranian revolution was preferable to the western puppet king. But he was deeply right wing and murdered communists during the Revolution.

[–] SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net 47 points 6 months ago (2 children)

well, if I'm celebrating something alongside NATOids and Zionists then I've probably deeply fucked up somewhere in my belief system

but regardless I don't think it's really crab-party or kitty-birthday-sad, he was a complicated figure. kinda like Putin I suppose. the struggle session on this website when he dies will be very interesting to watch

[–] niph@hexbear.net 12 points 6 months ago (4 children)

well, if I'm celebrating something alongside NATOids and Zionists then I've probably deeply fucked up somewhere in my belief system

Are you being flippant? Why is resisting western hegemony the only moral/political axis we care about? I don’t know anything about Raisi’s domestic policy tbh so can’t comment. But I don’t think it’s right to only focus on amerikkka bad while ignoring material conditions of those suffering under fascists globally.

[–] s0ykaf@hexbear.net 32 points 6 months ago (1 children)

you can say "amerikka bad" but really what it means is "western imperialism is the greatest obstacle to the left, even within 3rd world countries governed by the right-wing"

ironically, imperialists, intentionally and unintentionally, are more responsible for conservatism in iran than iran's own leaders. it's bizarre, but that's what a global system like capitalism manages to do

[–] niph@hexbear.net 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Ok, I take the point that imperialism is responsible for conservatism there, but I don’t really think that means we should skate over the abuses perpetrated by the conservatives themselves. I am happy our enemies are at each other’s throats

[–] s0ykaf@hexbear.net 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

imperialism is responsible for conservatism there

hey i only said more responsible, iranian conservatives still had their own historical agency and are definitely our enemies. i mean, they're the ones who pulled the trigger, even if imperialism put the guns in their hands

[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 10 points 6 months ago

iranian conservatives still had their own historical agency and are definitely our enemies

they are not our enemies. They are one of our strongest allies on Earth in defeating Zionism

[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Iran is not our enemy. If you think it is, you have remnants of chauvinism still

[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 29 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Despite not knowing anything, you’re still commenting and comparing him to a fascist. And it’s called the primary contradiction for a reason.

Edit: this is the argument so-called “communists” use to both-sides colonialism in Palestine “why aren’t you liberating them from their theocratic fascist rulers”

[–] niph@hexbear.net 3 points 6 months ago

I was going off what the OP said about him being rabidly right wing and murdering communists, which I don’t think anyone has challenged. I will educate myself on this topic more though

[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Why is resisting western hegemony the only moral/political axis we care about?

Because we live in the West and imperialism is the primary contradiction. It is your duty to be a revolutionary defeatist and oppose your nations imperialism, and if you aren't then you are a failure of a communist

[–] niph@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I oppose western Imperialism to the core. My question was mainly about why we only focus on one axis of struggle when I feel we should also act with solidarity for the oppressed of other countries.

I am perfectly happy to be self critical and learn from all of your comments but I don’t think “you’d be a failure of a communist if X” is that helpful of a way of communicating tbh

[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'm quoting Lenin almost verbatim.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/25.htm

  1. A policy designed not to mislead the workers, but to open their eyes to reality, should consist in the following:

(a) Socialists in every country must now, when the question of peace is so directly posed, unfailingly and more vigorously than usual expose their own government and their own bourgeoisie. They must expose the secret agreements they have concluded, and are concluding, with their imperialist allies for the division of colonies, spheres of influence, joint financial undertakings in other countries, buying up of shares, monopoly arrangements, concessions, etc.

For in this, and in this alone, lies the real, not deceptive, basis and substance of the imperialist peace now being prepared. Everything else is meant to deceive the people. Those who vow and swear by these catchwords are not really supporting a democratic peace without annexations, etc., for real support means exposing, in practice, one’s own bourgeoisie, which by its actions is destroying these great principles of true socialism and true democracy.

For every member of parliament, every editor, every secretary of a labour union, every journalist and public leader can always gather the information kept secret by the government and the financiers that reveals the truth about the real basis of imperialist deals. A socialist’s failure to fulfill this duty is a betrayal of socialism. There need be no doubt that no government will allow, especially now, free publication of exposures of its real policy, its treaties, financial deals, etc. That is no reason to renounce such exposures. Rather it is a reason to renounce servile submission to the censorship and publish the facts freely, i.e., uncensored, illegally.

For the Socialist of another country cannot expose the government and bourgeoisie of a country at war with “his own” nation, and not only because he does not know that country’s language, history, specific features, etc., but also because such exposure is part of imperialist intrigue, and not an internationalist duty.

He is not an internationalist who vows and swears by internationalism. Only he is an internationalist who in a really internationalist way combats his own bourgeoisie, his own social-chauvinists, his own Kautskyites.

(b) In every country the Socialist must above all emphasise in all his propaganda the need to distrust not only every political phrase of his own government, but also every political phrase of his own social-chauvinists, who in reality serve that government.

(c) In every country the Socialists must above all explain to the masses the indisputable truth that a genuinely enduring and genuinely democratic peace (without annexations, etc.) can now be achieved only if it is concluded not by the present bourgeois governments, or by bourgeois governments in general, but by proletarian governments that have overthrown the rule of the bourgeoisie and are proceeding to expropriate it.

Revolutionary Defeatism, the DUTY of all socialists, requires first and foremost opposing one's imperialist government. One cannot expose an 'enemy' government that one's nation is at war with, it only serves imperialist intrigue and most westerners do not understand the specifics of other nations anyway. They MUST focus on their own imperialist first and foremost and oppose any fake internationalism that targets only enemies, as that's imperialist intrigue

[–] Neptium@hexbear.net 46 points 6 months ago (2 children)

But he was deeply right wing

Define “deeply right wing”.

Did you know Iran has a public holiday celebrating the nationalization of their oil industry from UK/US imperialists?

Do you know that the Iranian constitution protects the welfare of it’s citizens and guarantees free healthcare and education?

and murdered communists during the Revolution.

Because communists can never make any major mistakes, could never host opportunists and collaborators, could never become divorced from the masses, especially in the Islamic world.

I implore people who perpetuate the perception that Iran as “deeply right wing” take this logic to it’s final conclusions - by that standard, which Islamic country is not “deeply right wing”?

May aswell sentence every Islamic country as backward rightwing shitholes. Since apparently the Iranian Revolution - one of the most progressive Islamic mass movements in modern history - is right wing.

We muslims, instead, need to listen to the Communists who could not even organise the members of their own book club, let alone the masses!

No dialectics, just aesthetics - with an inbuilt victim complex to boot.

(Note I realise after typing this comment it seems I am being very antagonistic to the OP in particular, but I am not. It’s just a trend and sentiment I noticed that permeates a lot of discourse surrounding Iran and communism in the Islamic world more generally that I feel like needs to be addressed. I hold no ill-will to OP or anyone in particular that has fallen into Western propaganda.)

[–] Vncredleader@hexbear.net 44 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

I completely agree, though I don't know if I would say the Iranian Communists from the revolution couldn't organize a book club. They fought like hell in overthrowing the Shah. It is crazy to dismiss progressive national movements for being anti-communist, but I am not sure I would be as harsh towards the Tudeh party and their martyrs. Other leftists didn't give support, but Tudeh did and their suppression in the early 80s is not their fault. The British even assisted the government in suppressing and torturing the arrested party members.

It is not as clear cut as op wants to think, but it is also not as clear cut the other way. Lot like Nasser in that regard. And to be clear op is wrong and we shouldn't be celebrating Raisi dying. This benefits no one but the enemies of the Palestine and the global south

[–] Neptium@hexbear.net 19 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Other leftists didn't give support, but Tudeh did and their suppression in the early 80s is not their fault

There are conflicting viewpoints on this from what I have read. I am not an expert in Iranian affairs so I’ll leave it to the historians and the Iranian people to sort out the details.

And to be clear op is wrong and we shouldn't be celebrating Raisi dying. This benefits no one but the enemies of the Palestine and the global south

That’s the point I was trying to make. This obsession and fixation of other countries’ political histories without humility and understanding of the global dynamics at play.

I could write a long essay about the communist party in my own country whose first leader was a triple agent of both the japanese imperialists and british colonizers. This nuance, although accurate, is irrelevant when discussing 21st century politics. There’s a reason why I never mentioned it in my previous comments covering southeast asian history.

The Tudeh party had relevance, back in 70s and 80s but not now. It really is a joke to discuss it now, like Iran is singlehandedly upholding the global capitalist system, and also when many muslims in the Global South deeply respect Iran and their president.

From what I see, many of Iran’s ills are directly because of Western sanctions and interventions. Not to mention the very tangible, material gains that the Iranian revolution had facilitated up to the present day, internally, and externally through the Axis of Resistance.

Why discuss something in public that will just play into anti-communist, or in this case imperialist, propaganda? Why distract ourselves from the important issue of US imperialism? What did Iran do to capture the heart of so many “well-meaning” westerners that they froth at their mouth at a slight mention of Iran?

[–] EmoThugInMyPhase@hexbear.net 14 points 6 months ago

Why discuss something in public that will just play into anti-communist, or in this case imperialist, propaganda?

We should be discussing these things when brought up in good faith in an echo chamber, like hexbear. It will be unproductive to focus on in in more formal settings where organizing and policy comes into place. Much like Hamas, we should be discussing their merits and failures here because most people here aren't fast to jump on some CIA bandwagon, but in real life you'll be wasting your breath trying to "distance" yourself from Hamas because the government already considers you a terrorist for opening your mouth about Israel, so it's better to spend that energy elsewhere.

[–] Vncredleader@hexbear.net 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The reason I mention Tudeh is because those are the communists op was mentioning, not current communists in Iran. It is silly to bring it up in this context, but I don't see the reason in trashing the Tudeh of the 80s in order to tell someone off for being a chauvinist, or juxtapose sympathy with Tudeh with support for the US. They are wrong, and the suppression of the communists following the Revolution was bad. I think ops comment was silly and baiting, but I just generally don't like being flippant about dead communists or putting the onus on them being out of touch with the masses being why they got tortured and killed by reactionaries just because Iran is a positive force in the global south.

Yeah we shouldn't be bothering with this matter right now, but that's why I settle for call it bait or sticking to the context of today, not dismissing or trivializing the killing of committed communists within living memory. Also again they are in the wrong, but I wouldn't call this public. A naive comment like that is a symptom of imperialist propaganda for sure, but I just think the critique should be kept to why we shouldn't be celebrating, not anything that could be construed as defending or obfuscating the killing of communists. They are wrong to bring up the Communists killed after the revolution when Raisi is not even cold yet, but I personally would recommend not litigating the worth of said communists in response.

This is all meant for the sake of discussing how we approach naivety from fellow leftists, not meant as an insult or serious criticism in any way. I share your distain for the sentiment in question, I just want to make clear in good faith what I think was overly harsh.

Also what country's communist party are you talking about if you don't mind me asking? That sounds wild

[–] Neptium@hexbear.net 12 points 6 months ago

I think we are mostly in agreement here. I don’t see the need to continue the conversation.

Also what country's communist party are you talking about if you don't mind me asking? That sounds wild

It’s the Communist Party of Malaya. Be warned though, the history of the party is incredibly sad from start to finish. Sad in a “it could be so much more” kind of way, that is.

[–] pressurized@hexbear.net 13 points 6 months ago

I'm not super up to the minute on Iranian politics but this is not something to mindlessly celebrate because "dead billionaire lol" when Iran is in the midst of getting closer to Saudi Arabia and peeling them away from normalization with Israel in the process

[–] mkultrawide@hexbear.net 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

This is a good post that adds context to the relationship between the left and the Iranian government. The only thing I would note is that we don't really know who this benefits right now, if anyone. Part of what makes assassinations complicated, especially of government figures, is that it can be hard to tell what will happen in the power vacuum created. Lots of assassinations backfire because the perpatrators either don't do enough work to figure out who is going to replace their target or they get it wrong. Political assassinations are almost more about knowing who is going to take control in the aftermath than actually pulling off the assassination. It's possible that someone even more hard-line than Raisi takes his place on a permanent basis.

[–] EmoThugInMyPhase@hexbear.net 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Define “deeply right wing”.

Many of the statements and actions are pretty right wing. For example, holding a holocaust denial conference a while back. However, I'm not knowledgeable about Iranian government like you (I just take what the Iranian government says at face value and don't really look too deeply into it), so it could be a subsection of the country, I don't know. Or how they mandate hijabs - this could be because the country is religious, but the west claims that most Iranians are against a mandate. I will say that while browsing the English wikipedia page for Iran, I was very surprised to see photos of Iranian women in modern day Iran dressing in typical western clothing; the western media only ever shows women in full body garbs. I'd like to learn more about what the reality is

edit: i've looked up some traveler's guides to Iran who talk about the reality of women's fashion there, and it seems that generally speaking, women can wear basically whatever they want as long as they cover their hair with a hijab, and the extent of said covering is not as strict as other conservative muslim countries

[–] Dr_Gabriel_Aby@hexbear.net 44 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Because there is no international left at the moment. It was destroyed between 1917-2001. There is only the imperial core and the frontier.

International communism is in its infancy as it was in Europe during the 1840s. It needs to be awoken by popular mass movements that are destined to fail. At this point the fracturing of the imperial core is the best we can hope for if we want leftists movements to have any chance.

[–] s0ykaf@hexbear.net 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

International communism is in its infancy as it was in Europe during the 1840s.

i'd never thought of it that way, depressing as fuck but i guess it's true

[–] aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net 39 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Because context matters. Ebrahim Raisi was not assassinated by a bunch of communists who are about to install state socialism in Iran. He was likely assassinated by Israeli intelligence in an attempt to destabilise Iran.

[–] wtypstanaccount04@hexbear.net 12 points 6 months ago

Honestly I think he was assassinated by the fog unless someone else can come up with better proof. That's not to say that nothing happened, just that helicopters crash a lot.

[–] Tunnelvision@hexbear.net 36 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Because now one of the big anti western nations is leaderless and vulnerable. Not very good when world war 3 could erupt at any moment.

[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 35 points 6 months ago

I feel like you’ve got it backwards, sure he was a right winger but ultimately he was fighting against the Zionist entity and its allies when he ascended. I’m not going to give him the Kissinger treatment for that alone

[–] ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net 35 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

If you feel the need to celebrate the same victories as Zionoist and Iranian Shah fans do......

[–] zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net 27 points 6 months ago

Because we aren’t chauvinist shitheads

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 18 points 6 months ago

You are free to celebrate his death with the Zionist freaks, deranged shah-simps, NAFO losers, Destiny enjoyers, /r/neoliberal enthusiasts, MEK cultists, and Wahhabist fanatics.