this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2025
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I’ve seen a lot of people argue that those with Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality disorder can’t be ethical persons. The argument goes that if you have a mental disorder which impairs empathy, you won’t care about hurting other people. You have no incentive to treat others with kindness and respect.

And while I think this line of reasoning may be true for some children, I would argue that lack of empathy offers no obstacle to ethical reasoning for a fully matured adult. Today I’d like to talk about ethics without empathy, about the people who can’t do it, and about how this helped Donald Trump win the 2024 election.

Psychologist Jean Piaget’s best-known work is his theory of cognitive development, which says children go through four distinct stages on their way to an adult mind. Although cognitive development is less discrete and less linear than Piaget’s theory suggests, it’s still taught in psychology classes for its usefulness.

The first stage, the sensorimotor stage, is all about learning fundamental interaction with the world. What’s safe to eat? What do mum and dad look like? How does walking work? This is where skills like object permanence are picked up. Before that point, peekaboo is a stimulating intellectual challenge.

The second stage, the pre-operational stage, is about trying to make sense of the world. It’s about play, and imagination, and learning. Cut a pre-operational child’s burger in half, and they’ll think they have twice as many burgers, which is more.

The concrete operational stage is about making reasoned judgements about the physical world. It’s the beginning of logic. Concrete operational children can plan ahead and understand complex ideas, as long as those ideas relate to the real world as they experience it.

The formal operational stage is about abstract reasoning. It’s about forming universal philosophical ideas. Formal operational children can engage in hypotheticals and learn something from them. They can think about things outside of their own experience.

The funny thing is, not everyone reaches the formal operational stage. There are plenty of “adults” — which is to say, people older than 18 — who can’t reason abstractly. Give them a thought experiment, and they’ll say it couldn’t possibly matter because it’s imaginary. Ask their favourite ethical philosophy, and they’ll give you a blank stare. If you’ve met someone who doesn’t respect cartoons as art and says they’re just for kids — even after being told about shows like South Park and Castlevania — you’ve probably met a concrete operational “adult”.

I think the people who can’t possibly imagine an ASPD “psychopath”, as the offensive slang goes, having an ethical code, are at the concrete operational stage. See, to a person at that stage, there’s no thinking about right and wrong abstractly. There’s only right and wrong from your direct experience. They can’t imagine reaching moral conclusions without their sense of empathy. if the answer wasn’t right there in the direct view of their feelings, they wouldn’t be able to see it.

Empathy is almost certainly the beginning of ethical reasoning. The understanding that others have feelings too IS essential. But that understanding doesn’t actually need to come from direct experience. You could read it in a book or see it on TV. And if it is from direct experience, you don’t necessarily need it every time. A reminder is nice, but people are capable of getting the picture from one blinding moment of sudden empathy in a lifetime.

Once the understanding is had that others can feel pain, anyone at the formal operational stage can just… figure the rest out. It isn’t exactly complex. You just have to be able to make reasoned judgements outside of your direct ability to observe. Theoretical physicists, computer scientists, and meteorologists do that all the time. They can make predictions, think about the unseeable, develop abstract theories. Any “psychopath” can surely do the same.

But, to a concrete operational who thinks they’ve fully matured into an adult, this may seem far fetched. Because after all, this isn’t how concrete operationals do morality.

What do they do? They just do whatever feels right. They can make predictions, sure, but only about their own feeling of empathy. When their empathy fails, their ethics do too.

Look at climate change!

Everyone knows life on earth is going to end if we don’t stop emitting carbon. The fossil fuel companies know it. The politicians know it. The voters know it. Sure, there are still conspiracy theorists, but 80% of us are all on the same page about the facts.

Alas, feelings don’t care about your facts.

Climate change feels far away. It’s hard to imagine the consequences. Having an actual emotional reaction to the impending extinction of our species is classed as an anxiety disorder and most psychologists will try to “cure” it. Our society is not designed for you to actually care about the climate.

And a concrete operational, if they don’t care about something, struggles to think about it. That’s why people still drive cars. Still want to invest in AI and crypto. Argue against renewables because it’s “expensive”. The economy feels real and immediate in comparison with the climate. That’s a feeling with absolutely no truth, but our society goes to a lot of effort to make it happen anyway.

Over the course of the last year, I noticed something very odd about the conversations I had about Gaza. And if you read the title of the article, you know where this is going. Before I engage in formal operation, however, let’s have some concrete facts:

  • Benjamin Netanyahu is a fugitive from international justice who refuses to be tried for war crimes

  • Netanyahu allowed money to be funneled into Hamas as part of a plan to increase hostilities between Israel and Gaza

  • The median age in Gaza is 18. Children are dying to bombs and bullets and starvation. Children are not valid military targets.

  • Joe Biden has historically supported Israel and given money and weapons to Israel for the known purpose of murdering children.

  • Kamala Harris ran as Joe Biden’s VP and, while promising an end to the genocide in Gaza, failed to convince many people.

  • Donald Trump promised to use even more violence against Gaza than Joe Biden if he was elected.

“Tankie” is a derogatory term for Stalinists who support China and Russia, even in the present when Russia is capitalist. The insult implied in the name is that tankies support the use of military vehicles to suppress civilian dissent. I’ve seen quite a few Stalinists embrace the word as a self-descriptor recently, so sure, let’s go ahead and use it.

In 2024, I saw a lot of members of online tankie communities like “lemmygrad.ml” (bit on the nose, no?) make a peculiar argument against voting for Kamala Harris.

The argument goes that Harris supports genocide because she didn’t go ahead and call her current boss a genocidal murder (which he is). And therefore, voting for Harris is a moral wrong, even if not voting would let Donald Trump win and bomb Gaza into ashes.

You can point out to a tankie that Harris promised to do less genocide and Trump promised to do more. And they’ll nod, and say they understand.

The thing is… I don’t believe them.

Well, I do believe the Russian astroturfers who lead the tankie movement. I believe they’re fully aware of what they’re doing. But the common tankie, the one who actually believes the propaganda… nah.

I think they’re perfectly capable of understanding the facts of the Gazan genocide. But that their judgement and reasoning is entirely unaffected by their abstract knowledge. I think they’re only at the concrete operational stage, and therefore, they can only reason about things that are directly in front of them.

The amount of suffering in Gaza over the past year is unimaginable. The number of dead is unimaginable. Sure, you can count the deaths and recite the number. But I think it has as much emotional resonance as if I tell you the sun weighs 2 x 10³⁰ kilograms. It hits the limit of your understanding of scale. it maxes out the dial. All you really understood was “big number”.

And for a formal operational, “big number” is enough. It may be abstract and meaningless, but fully mature adults can handle abstract and meaningless. We can actually make decisions in that space.

Concrete operationals? Intellectually, they can perceive a difference in two big numbers. But it doesn’t feel real to them. They can’t make judgements based on abstract reasoning. The fact that Trump is worse than Harris? It doesn’t make any sense. Harris is already the worst person they can possibly imagine. Trump is the same, so what’s the difference? After the dozenth picture like this, it gets harder to keep caring

A concrete operational can make a reasoned decision about how to vote if they’re given a way to care about the difference. For example, if they know a trans American who is scared that Trump will put them in a concentration camp. If they’re able to take their mind off the unimaginably huge suffering in Gaza for a moment and see the scared, hurt person in front of them, they can understand. But it’s hard.

And the concrete operationals who’ve been hoodwinked into following the tankie movement are conditioned to reject any chance to care about the difference.

And adult-bodied children like that are apparently the median US voter.

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[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 43 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

The amount of suffering in Gaza over the past year is unimaginable. The number of dead is unimaginable. Sure, you can count the deaths and recite the number. But I think it has as much emotional resonance as if I tell you the sun weighs 2 x 10³⁰ kilograms. It hits the limit of your understanding of scale. it maxes out the dial. All you really understood was “big number”.

Guys what if I told you that Palestinian lives matter only as much as inert physical matter?!??! so-true

And the concrete operationals who’ve been hoodwinked into following the tankie movement are conditioned to reject any chance to care about the difference.

god fucking damn it the mental model these people have of the world is literally a shitty american YA novel like "Divergent", at least they read another book

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[–] Real_User@hexbear.net 26 points 15 hours ago

I'm not reading all that but I'm gonna assume it's funny

[–] rhubarb@hexbear.net 76 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

If you’ve met someone who doesn’t respect cartoons as art and says they’re just for kids — even after being told about shows like South Park and Castlevania — you’ve probably met a concrete operational “adult”.

Lmao these people don't like my slop so they must be mentally undeveloped

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[–] SexUnderSocialism@hexbear.net 65 points 17 hours ago (4 children)

Libs really have an obsession with this whole adults vs. children stuff. cringe It allows them to feel smugly superior to you.

What? You don't agree with me? You must have an underdeveloped brain. Looks like I'm the adult in the room here. smuglord

[–] Diva@lemmy.ml 33 points 15 hours ago

but also we're the condescending ones

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[–] Tomboymoder@hexbear.net 63 points 17 hours ago

TL;DR Anyone who disagrees with me about supporting a genocidal candidate is a small-brained subhuman who doesn’t understand logic.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 48 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (4 children)

Inventing someone to be mad at.

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[–] Staines@hexbear.net 37 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Soulists escaping containment again.

[–] Diva@lemmy.ml 32 points 15 hours ago

jokes on you I just imagined myself being correct smuglord

[–] Leon_Grotsky@hexbear.net 7 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

~~Oh hey, this is the dipshit from the Obama thread last night.~~

E) Oh NM, this is an aggregator account

[–] Leon_Frotsky@hexbear.net 58 points 17 hours ago (10 children)

Lmao, opened up their medium and their top article was about how the laws of physics are authoritarianhahaha

[–] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 25 points 15 hours ago

For someone being annoying about philosophy, this person sure is bad at philosophy.

[–] happybadger@hexbear.net 32 points 16 hours ago

Of course they're a soulist. I've seen the most nonsensical shit from people calling themselves that over the past year or so.

[–] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 29 points 16 hours ago

Terminal idealist brainrot.

[–] Leon_Frotsky@hexbear.net 52 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Was reading their article about tankies and about a minute in they've shown their ass that they're actually just mad about someone making fun of their animated slop for little kids so they're calling this person a psychopath

[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 29 points 15 hours ago

A very serious view of reality

[–] RaisedFistJoker@hexbear.net 26 points 16 hours ago

theyve gotta be trolling

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 31 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

There's a few others, actually, on the fediverse. Either that, or one person who maintains other accounts, but I maintain occam's razor here.

[–] CutieBootieTootie@hexbear.net 23 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

No it's definitely different accounts of the same person. Didn't they have some connection to DroneRights too, like, literally being the same person?

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 20 points 15 hours ago

I've definitely had that vibe but haven't seen anything definitive yet personally. Not saying it isn't true, of course, but just saying if someone has something more conclusive I'd like to see it too.

[–] Tomboymoder@hexbear.net 33 points 17 hours ago

Definitely not a person operating mostly on their own feelings instead of logic and fact.

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[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 16 points 14 hours ago

These posts are starting to make me hate 20th century British communists but I guess if it wasn't for them we'd still be pinkos.

[–] dkr567@hexbear.net 37 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

Liberals always try to play the responsible adult role with examples as above when in reality, they are no different from children that throw temper tantrum and objects when they get called out for anything.

[–] Lemister@hexbear.net 22 points 14 hours ago

They think using appeals to nuance and intellectual language is a substitute for these things.

[–] Moss@hexbear.net 42 points 17 hours ago (10 children)

Not reading all that but

There are plenty of “adults” — which is to say, people older than 18 — who can’t reason abstractly. Give them a thought experiment, and they’ll say it couldn’t possibly matter because it’s imaginary. Ask their favourite ethical philosophy, and they’ll give you a blank stare.

This bit is hilarious. "Oh, you've never read Kant? This proves you are an inferior being, and you never fully developed " berdly-smug

Everything I read seems extremely ableist. "My opponents don't think like me, but I must be the pinnacle of intelligence and empathy - therefore my opponents are fundamentally lacking in intelligence and empathy and are less than me".

[–] btbt@hexbear.net 21 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

It’s also worth noting that their example which uses people with ASPD is more than a bit weird. No one is saying that they can’t imagine a person with ASPD being a psychopath, it’s just incredibly shitty and discriminatory to assume a person with ASPD is a psychopath based on nothing but the condition they’ve been diagnosed with. It kinda makes me wonder whether the author got called out for doing this and then decided that the opinions of the people checking them on their ableism didn’t matter because they must have all simply had Small Brain Syndrome

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[–] damnatum_seditiosus@hexbear.net 19 points 14 hours ago

Quoting Piaget always have me doubt the stuff. The guy literally based his theory by observing his own children, that's it. And then I guess people made the same observation, but some part of me really doubt that there is that linear development that is experienced by all children of all cultures.

No I have nothing to base my critic on, if only I followed my studies into education, I may have made some research on it as it was teached as gospel, with a lot of charlatan stuff too.

[–] sexual_tomato@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 13 hours ago

Regarding "thought experiments":

The reason complex brains evolved in the first place was so we could simulate the world forward in time and "try out" various actions before physically committing to them.

So they're not thought experiments. It's just thinking in the most basic sense of the word.

What some people seem to lack is the ability to compress highly abstract ideas into tokens; they have to hold their entire understanding in their mind to think about that idea, leaving no capacity to connect it to other things.

People like that are then constrained to what they can sense. If they can't compress the idea of an "inner world" into a single concept, then their conception of it is limited to how other people's inner worlds affect them, since that is all they can sense.

[–] Nacarbac@hexbear.net 20 points 15 hours ago

If only we could invest in the growth of site taglines...

[–] Cowbee@hexbear.net 49 points 17 hours ago (13 children)

Oh, the poster claims to be a Soulist and thinks John Wick is a Communist. Very silly people.

[–] ElChapoDeChapo@hexbear.net 13 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

thinks John Wick is a Communist

Wait so do they hate us or do they think we're badass? Libs need to stop sending mixed messages

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[–] 2812481591@hexbear.net 8 points 12 hours ago

Their early work was a little too new wave for my taste. But when Castlevania came out in '17, I think they really came into their own, commercially and artistically. The whole season has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the episodes a big boost. it's been compared to Overlord, but I think Alucard (A bit on the nose, no?) has a far more bitter, cynical sense of humor.

[–] FuckyWucky@hexbear.net 31 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

telling people they're children is a great way to get votes volcel-kamala

[–] roux@hexbear.net 31 points 16 hours ago

When someone asked you from the crowd to stop killing their friends and family, don't forget to use your Girlboss Catchphrase™. That will win over tankies.

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