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I recently caught my chud family member watching some dumb youtube video about "experts lying about COVID" (yes, chuds are still malding), and like, what's the fucking point anymore?
You can be as gracious, understanding and in good faith as possible, but people will believe whatever nonsense some idiot influencer says is the truth. It makes me so mad, and unable to argue with these people, because their irrationality makes me irrational. Fuck.
Anyway, how are y'all doing? 
Sometimes you gotta connect with someone on a personal and cultural level before they'll listen to you. People believe what their group believes, because 1) it helps them fit in, and 2) they trust the collective wisdom and values of their group more than they trust their own limited personal judgment and life experience. If you threaten the beliefs that help them get along with their peers, they're gonna shut down to protect themselves before you even get to the logical part of their brain. The best way to get past this is to connect with them first over shared values and life experiences, because it kinda legitimizes what you're saying and gives them permission to think about it.
Just my 2 cents, not aimed at OP or anyone in particular
"I'm starting to understand why Lenin and Stalin just shot some people."
~ Terrance Ray
I don't think most people really believe this stuff. It's more like a social signalling thing and a sort of reality TV fix.
Most of the dangers in our lives (speaking as a westerner in a wealthy and politically stable country) are systemic, like climate change for example. If shit really starts to happen in these people's own lives and they need to personally fight to survive I think most of them will snap out of it pretty quickly.
I don't think most people really believe this stuff
lol
they absolutely do... i mean most of all people have started believing COVID denialism on some level, stopped masking, etc. because their govt told them to in the name of continued economic growth.
As revolutionaries, we don’t have the right to say we are tired of explaining. We must never stop explaining. We know that when the people understand, they cannot help but follow us. 
“No altar, no belief, no holy book... have ever been able to reconcile the rich and the poor, the exploiter and the exploited. And if Jesus himself had to take the whip to chase them from his temple, it is indeed because that is the only language they hear.” - Thomas Sankara
Sankara was a real one.
The only time in the bible that Jesus genuinely lost his shit with people.
If I were taught this version of Jesus, I would likely be religious. Also, did Sankara write any books?
Also, did Sankara write any books?
Some of his speeches and interviews have been released in book form, Thomas Sankara Speaks.
(https://library.agnescameron.info/revolutionary%20history/Thomas%20Sankara%20Speaks.pdf)
i can't help but feel like this quote doesn't really apply in the same way to america in 2025. nobody in sankara's burkina faso benefitted from the status quo the way the typical white dipshit in the imperial core does and therefore actually had a reason to listen to communist arguments.
some people are just never going to listen to reason because of their material conditions and need to be reeducated or shot, and a lot of those people are white americans
I don't think Trump gets elected if the white dipshits are content with their material conditions, though?
I think there's real discontent in America in 2025, even with how privileged Americans are globally. I think that discontent is ultimately a result of getting squeezed by capitalism, and that most folks aren't aware of that. Trump won by acknowledging that "the system" is broken, which most people know- he just pointed them to bigotry instead to protect capitalism.
That's not to say that American's material struggles are comparable to Burkina Faso's - I think white folks in America are soft as shit - but I don't think people feel like they're doing well, and that's ultimately what drives their actions.
They're not content not because they're exploited. They're not content because they're not as privileged anymore. Treats are more expensive and they can't call Blake people the n-word anymore.
Exactly!! People are exploited and they know it, they're just often ignorant of the cause.
America is deeply racist, and fascists stoke those flames to explain why people are exploited.
I think the quote is still relevant because a ton of our work is explaining to people "no, treats aren't more expensive because woke, it's because capitalism."
yes the millions of mcmansion owners in flyover suburbia are just exploited and ignorant
I did a bit of a dive into race and wealth in the other reply here. Yeah, white people as a whole are extremely well off. The surprising take aways for me is that 1. there's so, so many white people and 2. that most of the poorest folks are white.
And re ignorance: kinda yeah - I think most people just kinda believe what they're told, right? Humans are social more than rational.
My parents were Republican and Christian, so I was Republican and Christian. As I got older, I believed what my friends believed. It wasn't until I had a partner specifically, persistently ask me what I believed that I started to develop my own independent value system.
Everyone should decide what they believe for themselves, but I think tons of people live their whole lives just based on the vibe of their social circle. That goes double for white folks, who the system works great for and who would rather not even think about race (see: "I'm not racist, I don't see color!").
I also think our perceptions of the world are shaped by the media we consume. Capitalists own the majority of that media, and they have a vested interest in people not coming to the conclusion that they are suffering under capitalism.
Imo, ignorance is much more likely than malice for white folks, and so yeah I think that requires education and explanation (like the quote says).
Oh, but it should def be white folks teaching white folks. I don't mean to put that on other groups.
White American by and large aren't exploited, fascist propaganda speaks to them because it takes advantage of their fears of losing their privileged status.
Oh sorry I just reread your post and I missed the second "not" in you first sentence, which really changes the meaning haha
I definitely had a different view: that white folks were also exploited under capitalism, just to a lesser degree. I looked up a few stats and I still think that generally, but the gap is way bigger than I thought.
63% of America is white, 12% black, 11% multiracial, 6% Asian
59% of Americans in 2025 don't have enough savings to cover an unexpected $1,000 emergency expense
It's not a perfect measure, but I'm comfortable saying "most Americans are living on the edge." Even if we round down to 50% and assume every single non-white person is below that line, that would still leave 13% of America white folks living on the edge.
Which is more than the entire population of black Americans (12%), which tbh I did not expect. (Note: I'm kinda suspect of the 'multiracial' bucket as it applies to how folks experience systemic racism, since iiuc that tends to be more like the family guy skin color ok/not ok meme. i.e. I assume that there are a decent number of folks in the 11% 'multiracial' bucket that experience anti-black racism)
I really like this article, too, specifically median wealth by race and the households by "teirs" of wealth.
Because holy shit there are so many well-off white folks and yeah, as a whole they're rolling in it.
"Households with no wealth or in debt" (poorest 11% of the overall population) shows 9% of white households have zero or negative wealth, compared to 24% of black households. Applied to the overall population, that's 6% and 3%, respectively. Which... challenges my intuition. I would not expect white folks to make up the majority of the poorest group of Americans.
Honestly, I think the biggest takeaway for me is that there's an absolute shitload of white people. As a group they're incredibly well off, but there's also a huge number of struggling white folks.
What I'd really like to see is the racial makeup of each wealth percentile, something like this graph, but scaled by the absolute number of folks in each category, not by the percentage of a given race that falls in each bucket. Looks like the underlying data is published by the government, so I might try to do it myself sometime.
Read Settlers
We really need to stop doing this thing here where we post quotes from leftists living in totally different times and material circumstance and act like it's applicable to people trying to organize in the modern imperial core.
I understand that, but for those who refuse to listen? What then?
It's not like there are other ways to make people support us, so we have to just keep chipping at granite edifice of capitalism.
I'm in the same situation. I just don't talk to these people anymore and tell them to shut up if I can't get away. I've spent years like you probably trying to carefully explain things and they just revert to saying heinous shit about women, immigrants, tree-hugging liberals, etc. the second I'm not around.
You give a thirsty man water. You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason into. So you keep explaining it to them. However you have to explain it in terms they understand. My late father was a china fan because, "at least they kept thr globalists out" and you know what? Being right for the wrong reason is close enough for most people.
You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason into
you can, a lot of people leave religion because they start thinking about beliefs they just uncritically accepted their whole lives. what you can't do is force someone to actually confront cognitive dissonance.
you can
no you can't and you just agreed with him while claiming not to
Yea this phrase always bugs me, I did exactly what you described.
In that way I don't thinknreason carries the day. You are finding a person who already had doubts and told them about options. Which is the story I hear most is that they had already not been emotionally fulfilled and then when a better path opened up they tried it.
Labor aristocrats and petit bourgeois intuitively know where their bread is buttered. They don't want to hear the truth. Our only hope with those is when they lose their privilege and become proletarian.
This is the most important thing, I think. OP, you are trying to explain things to the wrong people. 90% of the white people, or just the $50k+ annual salary holder of any kind, they can't hear it. 90% of the Latin american immigrants I talk to, they lap it up and give it right back. I've had random plumbers come by to fix a toilet end up talking with me about how American imperialism destroyed their country which is why they had to leave and come here, instead of being at home where they would rather be. The most marginalized and oppressed people are the most receptive, they will also hold reactionary positions by default but through organizing and mutual aid, trust can be built and those things can be educated away with time.
I live in such a white state, that even most of the 3D jobs are done by white people. Get any group of these white men together, and it’s a matter of minutes, maybe an hour or two at most, before someone says something racist or sexist or transphobic or whatever, with no pushback, although I certainly pay attention to the guys who at least don’t play along with this. A lot of these guys are either living in vans or are on the edge of homelessness, but whiteness is the glue that holds it all together.
I mean, "experts" did lie about COVID, but not predominantly that it exists. Fauci lied about the effectiveness of cloth masks over N95s because the US can't produce shit to save their lives (literally). So your relatives are partially right, but they've been propagandized against anything that could give them the full answer (like that supply chain issue was a crisis of capitalism and capitalism can't handle real crises, rather it often causes them) so unless they can overcome that partial truths are probably the best you're gonna get from them. I just interact with people like that as little as I can for my own sanity.
A lot of the right-wing nitpicking of CDC guidelines was very bad faith. Privileged reactionaries just didn't want to wear masks and stay home to save lives. Ya, early on during COVID the messages were a bit mixed or imperfect regarding masks because we didn't have enough high quality masks to go around. Everyone wearing cloth or surgical masks to prevent infected people from coughing viruses is still a fuckload better than doing nothing.
I have no patience for rich people who did nothing in 2020 to compare CDC recommendations from February to November of that year. If one did shit that put a lot of people at risk of death because they're selfish, they're not even a human being in my eyes.
Ya, early on during COVID the messages were a bit mixed or imperfect regarding masks because we didn't have enough high quality masks to go around.
The surgeon general tweeting, "STOP BUYING MASKS!" and Fauci going on 60 Minutes and agreeing with a claim that masks could increase your chance of catching it are a bit more than "imperfect" messaging, if you ask me. Early on, their response was to lie and tell people masks don't work in the hopes that it would leave more masks available for healthcare workers, it didn't work and was a complete betrayal of public trust. It wasn't just mixed messaging about cloth masks, they were putting out overt lies, many of which would become staple talking points of the anti-mask movement.
Anecdotally, I have a brother who's a bit of a weirdo politically but he was 100% on top of shit with COVID and early on he had liberal coworkers making fun of him for wearing a mask to work because it went against CDC guidelines. When the CDC did a 180, it not only discredited them but also discredited ordinary people who were trying to do the right thing and follow the science and pressure others to do so. If you're bullying people for wearing masks in February and then bullying people for not wearing masks in March, people stop listening to you and start pushing back, and "pushing back" often meant becoming antimaskers.
Yes it was generally also privileged reactionaries but as someone who cares about science I find it outrageous that these institutions peddled anti-mask nonsense and in a sane world they'd be held accountable to restore public trust. Unfortunately the only people looking to hold them accountable are the reactionary anti-maskers, for all the wrong reasons. Individuals should also be condemned and shamed for not complying with the correct guidance, but scientists and health officials also have a responsibility to act with a higher level of integrity.
you're hitting up against Atikaram bias
both liberals and leftists fall prey to this bias all the time, by hanging onto words of authority rather than looking at evidence or other means of reasoning.
"If the authority says it, it is true" -- this is the mindset of a very large portion of both liberals and leftists. In this case the authorities were dead wrong, and were also wrong for every year before 2020 by disregarding Asian masking. This is a very very big deal
at the same time, chuds would not have worn masks regardless of what Fauci did. I hope this is obvious. There was also a large chud cohort in 2020-2021 claiming that COVID did not exist. This has been memory wiped from their chip, and apparently most leftists don't remember it either.
As usual, the reality is that everybody involved is a moron independent of their politics
Also, the bug was demonstrably a bioweapon out of Ft D34thrick, so who knows
https://imgur.com/a/CRwan3n
The bioweapon reality is another good demonstration of stupidity. Everychud believes the Chinese made it, and everylib believes it's not humanly possible despite 50 lines of evidence lining up perfectly. In other words, if it's a honkey don't listen to the talky~___~
An Imgur link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
The surgeon general tweeting, "STOP BUYING MASKS!" and Fauci going on 60 Minutes and agreeing with a claim that masks could increase your chance of catching it are a bit more than "imperfect" messaging, if you ask me.
I remember looking up the effectiveness of masks pre 2020, and the consensus in the english speaking world was that there's no real public health benefit to masking in public during flu season. They basically portrayed the practice of masking in Asia as polite decorum and superstition.
Why did it take a pandemic for americans to learn what the Japanese had been doing for decades? IDK. But what the CDC was saying early in the pandemic was the same advice they were giving in the previous year's flu season. So calling it a "lie" isn't right, it was incompetence
I have no patience for people who don’t mask and I feel extremely uncomfortable around them and don’t trust them at all.
A lot of the right-wing nitpicking of CDC guidelines was very bad faith.
This is the problem, our critiques are based in reality, theirs are based in delusion. They stay stuff like it was an intentionally realeased bioweapon by China, who was working with Fauci and Biden. And that the vaccines are made to cull the population because they have caused "excess mortality." It's all nonsense.
bioweapon
If it's a bioweapon, we should do we can to fight it by masking, distancing, and taking the vaccine, right? 
I'm so in the same space as you, I have no patience for chud or even lib bullshit.
Anyhow, I'm the furthest thing from an ideal communist, but I try to spend as much time with vulnerable groups and people, because they're just much better humans.
You know what's funny. I started playing league again and legit met 3 of the coolest people outside this place tonight. Weird as hell.
Mood. I have a relative who is into aaaaall the "alt right" YouTube stuff and Joe Rogan. He is constantly complaining about wokes and black samurais in video games and all that fun stuff. I have no idea how to talk to him about it other than joking about it and changing the subject. I am a cowardly lib.
We can’t be raging communists all the time, we have to pick our battles, we don’t just charge machine guns while waving our hands and screaming, etc. This is what I tell myself while I am surrounded by people who are either nazis or people who don’t care about nazis.
If you want to engage (I do sometimes), you have to meet people where they're at.
Most of my family is poor and they're on that anti-immigration shit. Digging down, they tell me it's because people in the US need help. I try to deflate their reasoning and hopefully lead them to a better analysis on their own.
I have a cousin who is similar and I force dominance by saying "you are wrong and this is dumb" until they change the subject. Somewhat effective? I don't need to communicate past that at least lol
