hexbear
Hexbear Proposals chapo.chat matrix room.
This will be a place for site proposals and discussion before implementation on the site.
Every proposal will also be mirrored into a pinned post on the hexbear community.
Any other ideas for helping to integrate the two spaces are welcome to be commented here or messaged to me directly.
Within Hexbear Proposals you can see the history of all site proposals and react to them, indicating a vote for or against a proposal.
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All top level messages within the channel must be a Proposals (idea for changing the site), Feedback (regarding non-technical aspects of the site, for technical please use https://hexbear.net/c/feedback), or Appeals (regarding admin/moderator actions).
Discussion regarding these will be within nested threads under the post.
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I get the desire to center the folks receiving aid, but if the donors don't feel like there are enough safeguards wont they just stop donating? You can try to convince them or shame them, but that probably isn't going to work, especially when they could very easily find somewhere else to donate that has systems of accountability, demonstrable impact, etc.
my 2c as someone who isn't in a position to give financial aid but could help with some things like helping teach skills, review CVs, drive someone places, be a fake reference, help with shopping etc, potentially put someone up short term, and the like:
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the comm seems to incentivise only financial aid. Fine, money solves a lot of problems, wish I had more.
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Because of the competitive nature of posting users seem incentivised to dramatise their needs. Some posts have seemed medically implausible, which does not mean someone doesn't need help it just makes it hard to understand where you can be effective and potentially drowns out folks presenting their needs in a more low key fashion.
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People don't list the currency they need which makes it hard to know if you can afford to help
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One off vs expected chronic needs are not differentiated. Stuff like "For the forseeable future I need a place to live" and "I am sick and need cash to see a doctor" have vastly different scopes and solutions, and put very different degrees of obligation on someone willing and able to help.
I dunno what the solution is, life is hard as fuck. Hoping there's a way to help more people get what they need.
I really appreciate your points here and think they are important, especially the second one. Ive seen people in other comms talk about how they feel bad or anxious about even asking for aid because they dont feel worthy compared to other posters.
This community's existence is literally the very reason why I've been able to keep being alive. At times, I've been able to receive assistance from less anonymous sources, but Hexbear is the place that truly kept me going considering the amount of support I've gotten here.
This isn't an exaggeration—if I look back on my life for as long as I've been in these shitty circumstances and reimagine me navigating them without c/mutual_aid, it's a very nerve-wracking hypothetical to ponder. I most likely would've been dead soon enough.
Skepticism is certainly expected, but I feel like the desire to weed out scammers or disingenuous people is seeming so strong through this struggle that people are myopically forgetting to consider what some hard restrictions on this community would actually entail for the state of some of our lives.
I hate that I have to rely on c/mutual_aid to literally survive; that brief period where I actually had a job and didn't have to use this community as a recipient (and could even use it as a donor) was the happiest time period I can recall while being through this whole mess. And then, without an iota of transparency, that job chops me, but after trying to find work since then, even at the least demanding (in terms of requirements) workplaces, I realized the ride will continue to be a long, bumpy one. I hate working with animal products, but I went as far to apply to places like McDonald's and KFC, and I still couldn't get hired.
Being Black and transfem led me to this hell, but something I've always picked up on from people is that they might do something like put #blacktranslivesmatter in their bio but not actually understand just how harsh it can be to live this way, especially if you are in a reactionary region, as I do. And, as I can see, I'm not the only person who is saying these sort of things.
I don't know what else to say other than I hope we come to a reasonable solution here. This anxiety is far from what I need right now, so I'm going to try not to read these comments too much.
A lot of scratched liberals in this thread. Some of you really couldn't help yourselves, could you?
A user spent the money on drugs!
Who gives a shit? Would it matter if some of the Palestinians in Mutual Aid wanted to get high after seeing their families murdered? No, it wouldn't. You're just means testing based on location and circumstance. If anything, I appreciate the honesty and transparency. But rather than trying to help people deal with addiction, some of you saltine-looking motherfuckers would rather wag your finger at vulnerable people as you pearl clutch over """"crime"""" the way your fellow liberals think drug addiction deserves jail time.
A user got too much money!
Again, who gives a shit? If you think someone got too much money, then don't donate to them. It's as simple as that. Nobody is making you give money to anonymous strangers.
Someone is scamming!
Yeah, no shit? You're sending money into the void. It's anonymous. Nothing you see on the internet is real, even when people have their real names and photos attached to a profile. That's the risk you take when you contribute to Mutal Aid. Donating to someone, then finding out it was a "scam" is on you. Do you go around telling people your social security number? How about your debit card PIN? Because I do. I tell medical professionals and social services my SSN when I think I can trust them to use that information appropriately. If I get a scam call, I don't tell them shit. I hang up. Mutal Aid is similar: either you trust the person on the other end to use their discretion or you don't. If you don't trust them, then why are you giving them money? If you do trust them, then why are you getting up in their shit over how it's being used? You're not donating to improve the material conditions someone lives in. You're donating to have power over them. Fuck you.
They didn't spend the money on what they said they would!
You sound like the reactionaries who piss and shit all over themselves because poor people have smartphones and refrigerators. That's you, except you're saying it to people treating themselves to a nicer meal or having a Netflix subscription they can watch while they live outside in a fucking tent while it rains. If you want to have it be for a specific thing, then be upfront about your means testing. You can DM the user about getting them a gift card for a specific thing or call the place the person is going to be buying their $200,174,192 doodad and pay for it electronically. But don't do this shit where you give them money with no strings attached, then try to attach strings after it's been handed over.
Seriously a bunch of you cracker liberals are just mad the filthy poors don't kiss your feet and wipe your ass. The fuck are you even here for? LARPing-ass poser leftist dipshits who want to maintain unjust hierarchies that benefit them.
No to all of the above. Honestly it feels like you're trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Was the issue of people scamming even that bad? Afaik all the posts I've seen in the mutual aid comm feel and seem legit. If anything I think we should probably have stickied fundraisers for people who're homeless or on the verge of missing rent. Putting all these arbitrary limits on people's posting feels like it's setting up the comm to die and I hope the moderators understand that people's lives are literally on the line with this shit.
featuring an individual fundraiser at a site level will not be changed back there are too many and it isn't fair to those that don't get the same amount of time site featured as another. pinning them to the top of the mutual aid community could be a good idea however i think that it is better to make new posts that can rise in the active/hot sort algorithm.
I don't know what any of this is in reference to but it seems pretty strange to be worried about the chain of custody of money you give to someone on here but not give 2 shits about BDS or where the corporation you work for spends the product of your labor...
Why are beggars held to a higher standard than capitalists?
Wanted to update what the considered changes to the community are in summary:
- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
- display name is changed to "emergency aid"
- users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
- user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
- users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
- user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
- meta posts are no longer permitted
We will do a follow up post where voting on keeping the community as is or changing it will occur.
If you want to propose changes to this summary please answer in a comment below this one.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
- do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
- do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
- do you think we should allow meta posts?
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
No
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
Yes, I think once a day or every other day is fine, multiple times a day is too much and I feel like it drowns out other requestors
- do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
Yes, words mean things.
- do you think we should allow meta posts?
No, if this means posts within the comm about issues like this. It seems to just cause a lot of tension and regardless of how I might feel about what goes on in this particular comm, the passive aggressiveness that has been prevalent on this site more recently feels terrible. I can't imagine how it must feel for the people who are being called out, either.
IF meta posts were to stay I think they shouod be strictly moderated and there would need to be ground rules for participation. The personal attacks are outta control
putting a hard limit on the amount seems like a bad idea. even if some people needing more money leads to other people not getting money (which i don't believe is the case, i believe most donaters will try to donate to a variety of people), some people are just gonna need more money than other people, some people are in more desperate situations that require constant support and some people just need one-off support.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
no
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
no
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
no, because you have no way of actually confirming that they did donate
do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
yea
do you think we should allow meta posts?
idc
don't limit the amount requested
we won't be, the users who post in mutual aid and those who comment or donate are overwhelmingly against it as well as most of the userbase at broad
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users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post --Imagine walking up to someone homeless and desperate on the street holding a sign that reads "homeless and hungry anything helps" and saying "You've been here every day this week, you can't get anymore aid, you need to leave." That's what this reads like. Limit posts to once a day if you really want to regulate the comm this much, but let the people giving decide the amount. Change the format to require labels like "need for long-term" or something but this just feels like overstepping and a good way to further alienate people who can and want to give more.
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display name is changed to "emergency aid" --pedantic and unnecessary, just avoid the struggle session and keep the comm as it is with the added weekly advice/non-monetary aid posts or something
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users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.) --people should ask in the comments before offering advice, the posters shouldn't have to add this, it should be a given that unless explicitly asked commenters should just shut the fuck up and move on or wait for a thread where advice is meant to be posted
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user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format --this is fine but it has the potential for alienating those who can only give a small amount or stopping those who could give more from doing so when it should be up to the person giving how much they want to contribute, it's none of the community's business how much is being given
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users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment --it's none of the community's business how much is being given, have the OP update the post title and say thanks or if they're good or not or lock it after 72hrs or something, this just feels like such a huge overstep
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user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met --it's none of the community's business how much is being given, see previous answer
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meta posts are no longer permitted --it's on the mods to determine if this is worth it, but changing a single community rule could address the reason this was brought up
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do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested? No.
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do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts? Daily, yes, weekly no.
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do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating? Absolutely not.
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do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid? No.
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do you think we should allow meta posts? I don't think they're happening enough to warrant this.
What is the thinking behind no more than $100 per post? What if someone is in an emergency that needs more than that, or the refugees who advertise their gofundmes? I think this rule would screw many desperate people over. How does this work with people who use other currencies?
Also I don't agree with having to request an amount in the title - I ask for food vouchers and will take whatever someone can give. I often have to make multiple posts before getting a response so i don't want to be limited by how much I can ask for or I'll end up with not enough to tide me over from last time while i wait for a response.
What are meta posts?
Why are all these changes wanted?
As far as keeping track, I've found (since i ask for food vouchers that can be donated anonymously) some people prefer to remain anonymous, so they probably wouldn't report anyway. Also very dangerous - for instance, I got trolled on lemmy by someone who kept saying (for weeks) they would send aid but didn't. He got banned. But people like him want to make life worse for people who need help. They would anonymously report to the mods that they had sent us money, when they actually hadn't.
Weekly limit on amount of posts - this would prevent people from getting the help they need. It took me about 4 posts to get the help I need this time. I had nowhere else to turn.
All in all I think these changes will remove the only lifeline left for some desperate people.
The only change I want to see is the ability to reply in-thread removed. I, and several other people here, have had people comment in our threads saying they're going to help, and then they don't help. Other people see their reply, think we've already been helped and then don't offer any help. It costs us help we would have had from other people.
Name change yes, everything else no.
This is my reply to the dm, which I'm also going to post here.
Are you happy with the community as it currently is?
No. It isn't very effective at getting aid.
users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
3 times a week is too few and $100 ain't shit. If there's to be a money limit, it needs to be much higher.
display name is changed to "emergency aid"
No opinion.
users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
Good idea. Only if the user communicates it. No unsolicited offers, because 9 times out of 10 they probably won't help.
user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
I usually do this anyway. I think it's a good idea.
users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
Potentially good idea, but unless they provide receipts I don't think this would work out. What's to stop someone claiming to have donated to make others think the need is already met when it hasn't been?
user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
Good idea.
meta posts are no longer permitted
Bad idea. There needs to be mechanisms for community discussion.
Just woke up, might have more thoughts later.
Here is my public position.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
No.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
No.
- do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
No.
- do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
Put it to a vote.
- do you think we should allow meta posts?
No, put it to a vote.
- users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
Unnecessary. This already occurs when requested.
- user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
No. Add rule to ask to voluntarily do so if it fits the context of their needs.
- user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
No to a hard rule. Yes as a voluntary obligation to requestors as they are able to and no unless specifically requested.
I was just reading and upvoting occasionally up to this point, but I am strongly opposed to a $100 limit (or any financial limit for that matter) and feel I need to directly say so.
There was a time a few years ago where my wife and I were very close to homelessness. We asked in a mutual aid channel of a discord server I sometimes participated in (similar vibe to here, effectively anonymous, mostly just people asking for cash if they need it and giving cash when they can), and thanks to a few very generous people we were able to raise $600. She’s immunocompromised and diabetic, it would have been the two of us and a cat with no car, unable to find work, no way to store insulin, no way to buy insulin, almost certainly unable to mask effectively during a pandemic, and with no friends or family we could turn to. We needed every penny of that money and, through sheer luck and several close calls, managed to avoid the worst case scenario and have now gotten back to a fairly stable living situation.
If there had been a $100 asking limit I am certain that reality would have come to pass and we would not be where we are now. I cannot see any way in which any limit on how much people can ask for will actually, provably help anyone, but I can easily imagine a scenario where a limit endangers or kills people, our comrades and our loved ones.
I think the theory is that a limit to how much each person could ask for allows for more people to use the comms for help, as most donators will have a limited amount to give each week. I agree it's just too rigid in practice to be a useful change though, especially since the admins couldn't give exceptions without effectively endorsing the fundraiser, which they understandably don't want to do.
I see people saying this but without evidence that proves putting a limit on fundraising would actually allow more people to be helped overall, we are just deciding what to do based off of vibes/what sounds right. Personally, I don’t think that’s good enough when considering such a serious rule change.
especially since the admins couldn't give exceptions without effectively endorsing the fundraiser, which they understandably don't want to do.
For sure, it seems pretty far out of scope to expect mods here to decide who is and who isn’t entitled to extra help. I know leaving it up to the discretion of those giving poses it’s own problems, but I think it’s better (or at least more manageable) overall.
- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
I don’t like the idea of setting a limit on dollar amount. That would be a huge setback for users who are asking for help with things like rent, bills, and losing your house to an IDF terror attack.
As for limiting # of posts per week, I think the problem of visibility on that comm needs to be looked at: even before I ruined it for everyone, I noticed that donations would dry up the moment my post got too old and stopped being “hot,” even with a lot of bumps.
I’ll address the other stuff after I take a nap.
because different users can set a different default post sort it is difficult to do anything on the back-end to increase post visibility. I don't think you ruined it for anyone i just think that right now so many people need help and the average person here may be more strained than before.
Is it possible to create an auto-bump bot that bumps the posts in the comm once a day or something, without users needing to trigger them?
Limiting the amount requested is a fucking awful idea
IMO as someone who frequents the mutual_aid community when I can, we should not be policing posters there with respect to how much they've received or how much they can ask for. A consequence of this being an anonymous online community is that there's no way to know whether someone is being honest, and that is something we should just accept. Others have said this, and I agree with it: if you want to know you're helping someone who needs it, join a local org.
Potentially a limit to the number of posts could be helpful. However, I understand why people desperate for help would make posts in a short period of time. I would leave that one to people in the comm who need help.
Meta posts calling out other users feels too much like a witch hunt and I believe it's unproductive (for the reasons mentioned in paragraph 1). I feel like mods should handle grievances like that if we choose to handle it at all.
Mutual aid shouldn't have any strings attached to it, nor should asking for it have any limits.
I personally think meta posts are fine. If someone is adamant that another is 'scamming' - go ahead and post that shit in a separate post from their mutual aid request.
users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
dumb
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
- no there shouldn't be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
- no there shouldn't be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
- no there shouldn't be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
- no there shouldn't be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think we should allow meta posts?
- yes, if someone wants to cry about another user - let them. I don't understand what the point of this post/discussion is even about other than the 'X poster is living in his relative's driveway!!' post from a few days ago.
didn't we LITERALLY have this same discussion half a year ago when the same thing happened and decided to let meta posts be a thing but not let those people comment on the actual mutual aid post itself???
yes but the only time the right to make meta-posts was exercised resulted in a lot of people asking for it to be changed resulting in this check-in post
Fair. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as I was yelling at you (and realize my OP can be read like that).
Thank you for all you do!!