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[-] alternative_factor@kbin.social 166 points 3 months ago

The UN passed the resolution calling it genocide so I agree with that, I trust a democratic vote of the UN despite their inability to actually do anything compared to South Africa. I'm still going to vote Biden though because I know about project 2025 and know that we will probably get genocided in our own country if he loses. It sucks but that's how I feel.

[-] HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world 123 points 3 months ago

If the only thing Biden ever does is keep Trump from office it will be a net win.

[-] Psychodelic@lemmy.world 20 points 3 months ago

The IRA and the CHIPS Act were pretty legit - granted, I think trump might've passed some version of the CHIPS act as well. Seems like a no-brainer, imo, but the one that did it gets the credit!

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[-] Cruxifux@lemmy.world 39 points 3 months ago
[-] jballs@sh.itjust.works 110 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Project 2025 is a conservative plan to immediately reshape the executive branch and replace most people with Trump loyalists immediately if he wins. It includes dismantling the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, because while Republicans like to claim to be tough on crime, they really don't like an independently functioning Justice Department that has shown their leader to be a criminal.

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[-] Kbin_space_program@kbin.social 43 points 3 months ago

A maga movement to seize power and turn the US into a theocratic dictatorship.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 39 points 3 months ago

A fascist purging of government the Republicans have planned if Trump wins.

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[-] ivanafterall@kbin.social 86 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Damn, that's at least a full step above a "Huh" with an inquisitively arched eyebrow.

[-] EdibleFriend@lemmy.world 40 points 3 months ago

His finger is dangerously close to wagging.

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[-] Fridgeratr@lemmy.dbzer0.com 65 points 3 months ago

You know what would aid Gaza? Not giving money and weapons to the people blowing them up

[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago

Wrote this before and I'll write it again. People need to understand the broader context here:

Tough for Biden to balance between:

  • Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.

  • Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.

Worse, if Biden withdraws all aid to Israel and then Israel is hit with another terrorist attack, manufactured or not, that's the end of Biden. I think we can all agree that right-wing media propaganda is very effective and the ads would write themselves.

Within the electorate resides Jewish Americans who still largely support Israel by the polling, and the progressives and Palestinian Americans (a far smaller voting bloc).

The best Biden is going to manage in toeing the line is singling out Netanyahu (who himself is unpopular in Israel) instead of Israel itself and actions like this.

The risk obviously being that if Biden loses this election, the guy who wouldn't just indirectly but likely directly commit genocide against Palestinians would come in and you certainly wouldn't hear the words, "indiscriminate bombing" from Trump's facial sphincter.

[-] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago
  • Leaning too heavily into Israel and siding with genocide.

  • Leaning too heavily against, and being accused of being pro-Hamas.

So the choices are siding with genocide, and merely being accused of being pro-Hamas?

Seems like a clear choice, since accusations of being pro-Hamas get flung around for merely wanting to genocide Palestinians just more slowly.

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[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It shouldn’t be this difficult for an actual leader to stop politicking and do the right thing. This is like Bill Clinton ignoring the Rwandan genocide. Or Reagan collaborating with the Guatemalan genocide. Or Nixon ignoring the Bengali genocide and directing the Cambodian genocide that enabled the Khmer Rouge genocide. On second thought, Biden’s an exemplary United States President. /s

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[-] UnpluggedFridge@lemmy.world 64 points 3 months ago

I am really disappointed with the discourse concerning Biden's handling of the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Everyone is acting like Biden invented our alliance with Israel and is somehow personally responsible for our support of Israel. Geopolitical alliances are complicated matters that touch everything from international reputation to national security. They are fostered over decades. We have obligations to Israel that precede Biden and the recent conflict.

I understand the moral positions people are taking, and I agree that a genocide is taking place. But with anything geopolitical, these issues must be approached without hard lines and moral absolutism, because those ideals are what both sides are using to justify the atrocities we are witnessing. They both feel morally justified, and that the other side has crossed some hard lines. That is how diplomacy breaks down.

Those of you that want to see an end to the conflict need to understand that the official US position at this moment is aligned with you. But so many of you are proposing "simple" solutions that will not achieve that outcome. If we end support for Israel, they will not stop the genocide. What we will lose is leverage in negotiating peace and we will weaken the alliance with Israel, and the genocide will continue unhindered by US calls for restraint. You may argue that Israel relies on this alliance for security, and that is true, but you assume that other super powers would not jump at the chance to replace the US as a close ally to a nuclear power in the middle east.

Let's not forget how rash reactionary approaches to geopolitics threatened the NATO alliance during the Trump presidency. Our allies are already doubting if the US will honor the treaty, and this doubt extends to Taiwan, too. Weakening these alliances gives power to our enemies, full stop. Do you want to see war break out in the Pacific? Russia to expand its empire eastward? The Israel-Palestine conflict to extend to other Arab nations? Damaging these alliances will cause more war, not less.

Outrage against Israel is justified. But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 34 points 3 months ago

But look past your nose before you jeopardize our key alliances. Diplomacy is slow and frustrating, but it is better than more war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

There's a genocide happening right now with USA support where thousand of childrens have already been murdered. Israel is bombing neighbor countries and the whole middle east is boiling as a result. They are not seeking diplomacy they are seeking war.

[-] UnpluggedFridge@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

So we should abandon diplomacy precisely when it is needed most? When we withdraw our support and Iran and Egypt join the conflict, will it be easier to stomach the killing of even more children in more nations? After we cede our influence in the middle east and China expands its influence to fill the vacuum, we will be able to honor our treaty with Taiwan after an emboldened China begins bombing and killing their children?

This is the macabre calculus of geopolitics. This is the risk of reactionary policy. All of this is a hypothetical worse case scenario, but one thing is certain: if we withdraw our support, Israel will lose any incentive to stop the killing. More will die. And that would be the best case scenario.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 16 points 3 months ago

diplomacy

To send israel government "whatever it needs" and additional aid is the opposite of diplomacy. The really reason they are getting away with a genocide is because they have the west backing.

There's a genocide happening right now under your nose where thousand of kids are getting killed, this is already the worst case scenario. They are doing exactly what they want to do, they are not seeking diplomacy they want war.

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[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I'm never leaving lemmy. I love the way it's common to see normal sane views being widely accepted. I can breathe here.

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[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

If genocide isn't a red line for sending military aid then our alliances are already useless. We are the country and the country is us; not some third entity. So a moral failure of this magnitude being forced on us "for the good of our country" just opens the door to more moral failures. And we're the ones that will have to live in that system.

Furthermore, allies who do have moral standards are now looking at us wondering if our moral failures will extend to keeping our word when it's not a country that's entangled itself with our religious conservatives. They are very aware of why we support Israel. And very aware that they do not share Israel's unique political position.

It's that enough big picture stuff for you or would like to attempt to rationalize sending weapons to a genocidal regime some more?

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[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 47 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

then stop doing it instead of pretending to care ffs

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[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 46 points 3 months ago

"They have a point," Biden said after the protesters were escorted out. "We need to get a lot more care into Gaza."

They wouldn't need it as badly if someone didn't go around Congress to ban funding to UNRWA...

Still, the Biden administration decided to pause funding, and other big donors did the same. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, says she understands that UNRWA is the only international organization with the capacity to help deliver food, flour and fuel to Palestinians in Gaza, but she says donors want to see a full investigation of the Israeli allegations.

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/18/1232301965/the-u-s-is-barring-funding-to-unrwa-the-only-international-organization-aiding-g

And even after we found out the allegations were bullshit and confessions were after torture, both parties (except a few progressives) united to ban it till 2025.

Biden is literally responsible for this, but is acting like it's just some random thing and maybe he'll help out.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 41 points 3 months ago

You're not entirely wrong, but Biden has bipartisan backing on this as it's part of the whole funding bill, which makes most of the repesentatives and senators complicit with Biden which this bill also gives Israel $3B, and Ukraine $0.3B.

Still, like how a massive frigate turns slowly, the actions of the State Department are showing a change of tune, and the US is nearly fed up with covering for Israel's genocide. The first steps are to abstain from ceasefire resolutions and then to give the protestors attention and credibility. There are many more steps to go.

[-] nednobbins@lemm.ee 21 points 3 months ago

I'd really like to believe that but the cynic in me expects that as soon as Israel gets done with their genocide campaign they'll pretend that they've turned a new leaf and all funding and military assistance will resume as though nothing had happened. There will be no lasting consequences for Israel's actions so they will, correctly, assume that there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.

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[-] alternative_factor@kbin.social 21 points 3 months ago

Republicans are always gonna disrupt any real action anyway, they are full mask-off on the Christian nationalism thing and believe they must support Isreal 100% no matter what to make jesus come back.

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[-] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 32 points 3 months ago

bullying works. if it didn't, bullies would do something else.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 25 points 3 months ago

Biden from today is sure saying something different:

U.S. Finds Israel in Compliance With Biden's Demands on International Law, Humanitarian Aid

'We have not found them to be in violation, either when it comes to the conduct of the war or the provision of humanitarian assistance,' the State Department said

[-] TexMexBazooka@lemm.ee 26 points 3 months ago

posts something the Biden did not say

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[-] mlg@lemmy.world 25 points 3 months ago

Amazing, they actually got him to say something after like the nth protest at his rallies after 6 months.

If we keep this up, he'll eventually talk about how he was totally gonna refund UNRWA after he loses in November.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 22 points 3 months ago

Except he completely missed the point.

"We need to get more aid into Gaza" is very much not "we need to stop arming Israel so much."

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[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 21 points 3 months ago

No fucking shit decent human beings have a point, that could easily be taken as dismissal.

Please act, and end Israel's reign of horror.

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[-] Hadriscus@lemm.ee 13 points 3 months ago

I'm wondering just how damageable in terms of geopolitics would a deterioration of relations with Israel be. Cause it has to be huge to justify not acting on this genocide. What stops Biden/US from acting ? what can I read to better understand this issue ?

[-] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 39 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)
  1. the US sees Israel as the only thing it can control in the middle east. it was always meant to be one of a few "pro-democracy beachheads" in the area, with the US attempting to make iraq work the same way in the 2000s. The idea was to put Israel in a position where they were powerful compared to their enemies but dependent on foreign aid, so that they could do whatever they want as long as they also did whatever we want. This is straight out of the British post-colonial hegemonic playbook - you don't send people to take over, and instead you elevate one local group from second or third place to the top and then make sure they never develop enough power that they can remain on top without your help. If you do this successfully, you can control them completely because all you have to do to send them tumbling from power is nothing when they're counting on your support.

  2. Up until now, the impact of helping Israel didn't have to be all that massive because the impact of Israeli violence against Palestinians (edit: ON THE OPINION OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN) wasn't either. What you're seeing is a replay of the US allowing anyone with a camera to report from Vietnam - the narrative used to be pretty tightly controlled but between Palestinian social media updates and Israel's internal jingoistic propaganda being leaked to the western world it's becoming harder and harder to sustain the whole 'most moral army in the world engaged in a limited defensive operation that respects the right of all law-abiding people to live in peace' narrative. We see them shooting at people gathered around aid trucks now. We hear them talking about "children of light vs children of darkness", "every Palestinian is a terrorist because they all support Hamas" and seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos. Americans tend to like war in theory, but we have a strong sense of fair play and we'll only stay on board up to a certain amount of video of unarmed people being mowed down by soldiers. This is why they're simultaneously softening their position on Palestine and moving to seize the only major social media outlet that isn't US-based (and therefore isn't able to be pressured about 'misinformation' the way that FB, X, reddit, etc are). It's a matter of appeasing us in order to stay in power now while moving behind the scenes to ensure that they control the narrative in future so that they're never again put in a position where they're beholden to the will of voters who think that foreign people are people.

[-] archomrade@midwest.social 15 points 3 months ago

point one is also why the chosen rhetoric in opposition of the genocide is targeted at Netanyahu specifically rather than the entire administration, because rather than loosing relations with Israel as a country, the US wants to oust Netanyahu and have someone else they support take his place. That way they can keep their post-colonial pet in the middle east without looking like they're (still) supporting a genocide.

The problems with this, though, are:

  1. the US would still be engaged in a post-colonial imperialist action in the Middle East
  2. the broader Israel-Palestine relationship will almost certainly stay the same regardless, and I think a lot of American's opinion on Israel has been pretty irrevocably damaged since this new phase of conflict started.
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[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 14 points 3 months ago

seizing all of Palestine to build beachfront condos

Whoever buys that land to make those needs to be harassed for the rest of their lives. That's absolute scum of the earth bullshit. Religion and real estate all in one gigantic shit storm... Literally the worst humanity has to offer.

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[-] Bwaz@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

Israel uses a significant amount of the $$ the US gives them to lobby (IOW, bribe) members of the US political parties to support them. Including giving them more $$, in a positive feedback loop. The lobbied polits in effect give themselves money along with what Israel keeps.

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this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2024
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