this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2024
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Hey everyone, I've removed bans for everyone that did not request one in the previous admin thread. (I think. If you got banned and I didn't restore your account yet, let me know and I'll fix it.) Don't worry! We're not gonna just ban people for no reason.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, Alaskaball confirmed that Sangria was their admin alt. They were messing around with their admin tools on their own account and figured it would be seen as a funny bit, but without being informed of the bit many of the mods and admins were just as shocked, confused, and appalled as you were. I've talked to the other admins and mods, and we're all gonna take it easy on bits for a bit. (Pun intended. This is the last one, I promise.)

If you're afraid that there's been an infiltration of transphobic, egomaniacal wrecker mods who hate the users, I want to assure you that's absolutely not the case. The overwhelming majority of mods and admins on this site are trans. Our admins are all trusted, long-time users in good standing. We regularly browse, comment, and post on our main accounts. You post and chat with us daily as comrades, and we value all of you. You may not recognize the usernames on our admin accounts because we regularly swap the alts used for admin privileges. This is why you'll see really old or unused alt accounts as well as really new accounts on the admin team.

I've seen a lot of speculation down below, some entertaining, some upsetting. We absolutely do not accept transphobia or any form of bigotry on this site. Some of the statements provided by mods and admins have been seen as transphobic and bioessentialist. I want to offer some transparency, but also clarify that I can't get much more specific on this for personal security reasons.

During the earlier discussions on how we felt things could be improved with these communities, multiple trans mods and admins described their reasoning in favour of the change by expressing with a variety of wording that it's the [he/him] demographic in particular that has been the source of toxic and troubling behavior in the tanks. That the he/hims haven't been beating the accusations, so to speak. With that group being largely cishet white guys on this site, these two terms were assumed to roughly correlate. We weren't making prepared statements for release, the comments that got posted here were paraphrased and combined from more casual comments made by trans people, in the mod chat to mostly other trans people about some of the chauvinistic and ironically bigoted posting habits that they saw as alienating and unhealthy for the site, and what we could do to improve the situation. We genuinely didn't foresee the potential for a miscommunication of those statements as being bioessentialist, and want to extend our sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding.

Edit: Please feel welcome to post in c/gossip as you would have posted in the_dunk_tank, and in c/counterpropaganda as you would have posted in the_dredge_tank.

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[–] CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net 57 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I’m sorry, but as a mod on this site I feel like I have to say something that I don’t seem to see any other mods/admins saying:

The mod/admin team are never going to remediate relations with the general site user base if this post is indeed how things will be working moving forward. There is no self-crit at all regarding the main thing people are upset about, which is NOT closing the tanks, but that mods/admins get to voice their opinion on this site and what it should look like/how it should be run via executive action that is not available to the average site user.

I’m sorry to tell any of my fellow mods/admins this, but your experience as a mod/admin does not make your opinion inherently any more or less valuable in regards to what the site should look like than that of the average user. Yes, you may see more of what happens behind the scenes, lower quality/aggravating posts, etc. but that is something you took upon yourself as a gesture to the community you are a part of, not a leader of. Not thinking posts are high effort enough is your opinion. Thinking posts dunking on libs are boring is your opinion. Thinking Hexbear needs to change this way or that is your opinion. If you have a problem with things, you must act AS A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY and voice your opinion on necessary changes just like anybody else. You should not get to be a more privileged user than the average person here and go ahead and talk behind the scenes with other people who have the power to change the site and decide what needs to happen without user feedback. Mods/admins exist to enforce a site’s rules and act as maintainece, not to be a leading body of powerusers who determine what the site should look like and how it should be run. The reason there was so much pushback on these decisions is that they were never (and still haven’t been, for that matter) presented to the community as something to be discussed at all, and changes were made by executive decision.

The only power the average user has to voice their opinion on how the site should look is via posting, and that is the only way mods/admins should get to voice theirs. Acting otherwise is a classic leftist org blunder that cultivates a massively toxic culture of powerplayers and in-groups at the levers of power that leads to growing tension and eventually fractures both within the in-groups and between the in-groups and user base at large.

A whole host of other very important issues (notably transphobia, misogyny) have arisen as a result of the initial actions taken by the mod/admin team, and there is no reason they can’t/shouldn’t be addressed. That being said, the ignorance/arrogance of the mod/admin team of marching on forward after their wrongdoings have clearly been outlined is concerning and needs to be undone as soon as possible. The only thing worse than making a bad decision is committing to it once it’s well known that it went poorly.

Undo the changes, bring them up with the community just like any average user would have to, gain valuable feedback from them, and take action from there. To genuinely save face + demonstrate that this site is for its user base at large and not just for a few elite users who want it to be their pet project, this the only way forward.

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Incredible that people still don't get this.
Infuriating that they seem to not get it on purpose, since they constantly reduce the critique to "we think there's a shadowy cabal of transphobic mods who want to ruin the site" and then present it like that's what people are actually saying. I've talked enough about that

Instead I'd rather give you some theory you can use. "The ladder of citizien participation"

I'm not gonna write a lot about it, the text is short and written for the layperson. It's a neat tool for valuating how well your community planning actually integrates the community. It's pretty sad a group of alleged leftists screech at the suggestion we should do better than step: 1 "Manipulation". Most public projects in the US does better than that. Are you telling me you think the US state is better at working with communities than you are? SAD.

[–] CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago

It’s very frustrating to watch it unfurl in real time when literally it’s so ubiquitous in leftist groups that it’s meme tier tip of the iceberg levels of understanding leftists, AND WE MAKE FUN OF IT ON HERE ALL OF THE TIME!!!!!!!

[–] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Can i get an apology now @booty@hexbear.net for being miscast as the site demon for no reason other than literally it-is-known, raiden-source, and a personal beef as a source

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 15 points 1 day ago

@booty@hexbear.net time for that self crit and apology.

[–] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 23 points 1 day ago (2 children)
[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I can really only struggle for a few days before I'm just like real tired man and want a nap

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 34 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I was at work yesterday so I couldn't have my eyes glued to this.

Are the admins/mods still framing their the problem with the struggle session as just being about the banwaves?

Has anything been said or done about the ACTUAL spark that began the drama? That is, has there been a discussion about the way decisions are made without user input (let alone democracy) for reasons that are then lied about?

This will happen again unless the primary contradiction is resolved: is this website a social club for the mods in which we are simply extras, or is this our website as the users?

[–] Sulvor@hexbear.net 21 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I am working on creating a matrix space that would be where all site proposals are posted, discussed and voted on. This space could also be where feedback and mod action appeals can be posted. Discussion regarding each proposal, appeal, or feedback would be within a thread under the top-level message.

It is open to join for anyone, the history of the channel can be seen and voted on, however only people that verify their hexbear account can send messages.

This is very much a work in progress and may change in the next couple of week but our priority is to change things to improve transparency/user engagement in the steering of the site

From Carcosa somewhere in this thread

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[–] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 40 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

While I shouldn't weigh in too much, especially post-hoc, I could've told you that having TC69 back as a mod or admin was a very bad idea.

As important TC69 was (and from a legacy perspective is) to creating an aggressively positive trans culture, she, for better and worse, acts incredibly narcissistically when she is placed into positions of power, and more importantly, in my opinion, she is/was ideologically incoherent as moderator. You cannot simultaneously say 'its just a website' while also banning people for small indiscretions or personal beef. After all, 'it's just a website' why should the moderators care that much? She tends to take so much shit that goes on here personally and yet expects nobody else to.

A poor decision unless you enjoy drama.

[–] sadschmuck@hexbear.net 33 points 1 day ago (1 children)

they, for better and worse, act incredibly narcissistically

I think the whole "cult of personality" thing feeds into it. Coming back after years and being made an admin immediately while being lauded as our Stalin and all that, I don't think it helped. And she wasn't in anyway ready to handle that struggle session either, let's just say mistakes were made.

[–] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 32 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

The big issue is that the cult grew in her absence, as when she was admin she was an incredibly controversial admin for the community, and it would have been fine if she wasn't granted admin immediately. But 'TC69 thought' has, over the years, mostly been distilled into the good parts of it (which are unequivocally good) with the more problematic aspects forgotten or memeified.

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago

For a long while the "TC69 thought" joke made me angry. Took a year or so before I felt neutral about it and a bit more before I started being able to join in. I thought we all recknognised it was ironic.

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

It's true that TC69 was always divisive. But the reason she is so fondly remembered is that in the big picture she was pretty much always right. Idk, I think her timing was just bad mostly. She came back right when the worst struggle session in a long time was kicking off and tried to take control of the situation after it spiraled out of control. I definitely don't think she read the room very well in how she did that, but also she was less established here and people were prepared to think the worst. Probably would have been better if she had come back as a regular user for a while before trying to be an admin again

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

But the reason she is so fondly remembered is that in the big picture she was pretty much always right

I don't really agree with this. The reason she is remembered fondly is because a lot of users who disliked her schtick left - and that wasn't just transphobes. She made the site way less inclusive for ND people, she made it a hostile space where you were unsure about what was going on. This turned people off. When she made her first "I'm leaving" post there were plenty of people celebrating it - and getting banned for it.

This was the basic cycle of TC69 handling any issue the end result was that she banned people until they no longer complained. Thinking that if you hear no issue, there is no issue. This is certainly true, but it also means you lose a lot of people. ~~The way the VCJ thing was handled was fucking abysmal.~~
I'm glad she made it a better place for trans people who she liked. I'm sad she was not interested in just making the site a better place.

edit: Others who remember the VCJ thing better have corrected me.

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I actually must politely disagree. The VCJ mistakes were all made at the beginning by other people and TC69 came in at the end after multiple admin resignations, including dev admin resignations, and did clean up. It was very bleak. People genuinely were not sure if the whole site was done. The only way that fire got put out is that a whole bunch of people who couldn't stop fighting got banned. I myself was probably an ass hair away from getting banned, but managed to shut the fuck up. IMO she tried to do the same here and did not pull it off.

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Tbh I wasn't around for the very start of the VCJ thing, so I can't speak to that. I'd come back from a break. I've edited it

I was here for the whole thing comrade-stoic

[–] NewAcctWhoDis@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The way the VCJ thing was handled was fucking abysmal.

And then people revise history to pretend that vegans were perfectly happy until VCJ showed up when that absolutely was not the case.

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I sadly had been away and then came back in the midst of the VCJ thing, so I don't know what was going on in the time leading up to it. But yeah we do love revising history here, it's another bad trait.

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[–] NewAcctWhoDis@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago (5 children)

But the reason she is so fondly remembered is that in the big picture she was pretty much always right.

I don't think this is true but her tactic of "criticize my decisions and I'll ban you" makes it seem that way after the fact.

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[–] D61@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

looks around

Every time I fuck around outside of hexbear for a few days some shit goes down... was this all my fault? Was I the sin eater holding everything together this whole time?

[–] Lyudmila@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Yeah, sorry, this one is on you actually. (joking) It's like when people go for runs so Kissinger or Feinstein can lose their plot immortality.

The lathe is so tired of decades where weeks happen that it just keeps handing us struggle sessions in the hopes that we'll all take a break and start the revolution. do-something \

[–] DeathToBritain@hexbear.net 40 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'd like to add that a thing creeping into a lot of these discussions is the survey. the survey is not a representitive of all users, it is a self selecting group of people who took one to give us a sample of the userbase that we have extrapolated. the survey itself says around 600 people responded. a look at the side bar will show you the number of users a day/week/month regularly exceeds this. people in that thread of the survey results were debating about how many trans men and cis women were even on here because the data does not tell them this, so they invented readings from it.

furthermore, the survey does not say; are the 'he/him's cis, are the 'he/hims' white, are the 'he/hims' straight. you do not know who is behind the prounoun tag and username, do not invent a bogeyman out of users based on a survey. it is not empirical evidence. cis het jacketing he/hims is not useful, and can do a lot to hurt people in ways you do not know. I've seen this shit hurt trans men friends of mine so many times

[–] DeathToBritain@hexbear.net 26 points 1 day ago

I am nott saying there have not been signs of unreconstructed misogyny of late. I saw the cheating thread and others like it, there is an undercurrent of a problem at certain times. you do not do service to the space projecting those problems onto a bunch of people you do not know in a space where we supposedly pride ourselves on good faith engagement

[–] m532@hexbear.net 33 points 1 day ago (3 children)

This is what I wrote about zoomerists fake selfcrit post before I hit post and realized it had been cowardly deleted by creator

I read your whole post and came to the conclusion that you are a privileged liberal with extreme amounts of projection.

This is in the wrong comm. This isn't selfcrit, this is dredge material.

First you project your privilege onto all of us, then you do copious amounts of concern trolling and strawmanning.

You think the workers in the imperial core are redeemable, that's where your liberal brainworms are coming from. Almost every worker in the imperial core earns more money than the ones outside it. They have a material reason to support imperialism. They may be your comrades but that's because you are an imperialist liberal.

Then you suddenly want to decide how the comms you hate are named and run. Are you our emperor? Certainly seems like it, with how you talk over all the marginalized comrades who were deeply hurt by tc69 because of your liberal "protect the marginalized (but don't listen to what they actually want)" shit.

[–] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 32 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

That mod had the nerve to post it in selfcrit where the entire post was her justifying her actions. It wasn't even a nonapology. She might as well could've titled her post "why I was completely justified and you misanthropic losers ain't shit," which would at least be honestly titled.

Beyond embarrassing for all of us for her to rant about "privileged first-worlders" only for MohammedTheCommunistPalestinian to pop up and say, "uh, I'm from the West Bank."

[–] Beetle_O_Rourke@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago

'I was misunderstood due to awkward wording' is-this a sincere apology for nearly destroying the site?

[–] Venat@hexbear.net 30 points 1 day ago

That post was so bizarre.

ZL gave the impression that she spearheaded this controversy of forcing the comm changes, insulting and humiliating the entire user base, and then hid behind Carcosa.

[–] Civility@hexbear.net 22 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Hexboare@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I have it on good authority that we have moved past accounts like yours; my sincere apologies.

[–] 2812481591@hexbear.net 46 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't like the implication that some of the admins apparently check every time you say something that annoys them what your pronouns are and tick a running tally until their grudge gets big enough to do something unpopular. Is this the sort of thing people brought up as concerns when they didn't want pronouns to be mandatory? back then it was [none/use name]s who "weren't beating the allegations". I really don't like puppygirl stuff. Do you think it would be productive to take that as an excuse to have a discussion about whether we blame [she/her]s or the [she/they]s as the source of more inappropriate kink comments?

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 37 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Yeah I've seen one of the things mentioned wrt "chauvinism" being hornyposting and like... The horniest posters on this site are all queer. @kristina@hexbear.net has written about her hunk of a partner a bunch (approving), I've written a ton about my dating life, we had a whole mini struggle over @twink being too horny on main.
I'm not saying it's inherent to any one group, because it isn't, but it is a bit rich trying to pin it on the "cishet he/hims"
It's not like it was just dudes participating in the BRICS chicks debacle

[–] TerribleHands@hexbear.net 21 points 1 day ago

BRICS chicks debacle

A-Tier drama, forgot about that

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[–] Noven@hexbear.net 41 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I love my niche communist internet forum that avoids the pitfalls of niche internet forums and communist organisations waltuh

[–] Noven@hexbear.net 26 points 1 day ago

As a side note, having spent way too much time moderating on the internet myself, there is a absolutely a type of admin/mod who sees themselves as different and above the rabble because of their role and spend way too much time in secret mod chats talking about their userbase. Personally I can't deal with debating issues with people when a big "I can ban you" badge hangs over my username but i've seen too many people whose online persona hinges on it and it's very unhealthy.

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