menby

In an effort to not over-intellectualize the first two chapters, I've scrapped maybe two or three versions of what I'm about to write here. I think my childhood, in terms of my relationship with masculinity and patriarchy, is not totally in line with the way it is described in the first two chapters. Growing up, my parents tried their best to not impart any hardliner ideas about what it meant to be boys or girls. I am the oldest of three, with two younger sisters.

On my father's side, my grandfather was always very kind and always one to engage in a strong and warm embrace, and my grandmother clearly ran the house and was also very funny, sassy, and sweet to us kids. Reflecting on that house, and that side of the family, it really strikes me as a matriarch run house. Many kids on that side of the family, many of the oldest being women who were a lot like my grandmother. Also on that side of the family is an uncle, married into the family, who is the kind of man who also demanded strong hugs, and, maybe to out do my grandfather, a fat kiss on the cheek. He will hold your head in his hands, look into your eyes and tell you how much he loves you, just for walking into his house. It doesn't matter how old you are, I could go see him tomorrow, and he would greet me the same way.

On my mother's side, my Grandfather has always been very encouraging and kind, he never once took issue with who I was as a boy or a man. My Grandmother, however, was a different story. She had apparent ideas about what girls and boys should be up to, how they should look, and act. Those ideas aligned strongly with patriarchal ideals. She also ran the house, funny enough. She, I think, is the reason why I stopped getting my hair cut from middle school to the end of high school. She hated my long hair, and let me know, regularly. My Mom, however, loved my long hair and encouraged me to keep it. When I decided to cut it off, after almost a decade of growing it, she didn't even question why, all that mattered was that it was my choice to make. Also on that side of the family is an Uncle, who I think suffered from the kind of opinions my grandmother had. I loved to draw growing up, and once found an old sketchbook that belonged to my Uncle. For a short time we bonded over drawing, it was really cool. He is such a creative and talented person, but I don't think he was ever allowed to really be that person. I once went to my grandparents on this side, and asked them to cosign on a loan to art school. My grandmother declined. Years later, I found out, when my sister expressed her desire to go to art school, that they believed you wouldn't make any money doing art. This wasn't expressed by my grandmother, but instead, my Uncle... which was a real betrayal to not just my sister, but also to me.

All this to say, I feel like I had a real mixed bag of experiences. My father cares a lot about us kids, but with me, he would, at times, especially while I was younger, use physical intimidation to get his points across. That slowed as we got older, and I have good memories of him coming to my defense against being persecuted. I experienced bullying like others have expressed here, mostly at the hands of other boys, but also at times from girls too. My friends were all the weirdos in school, none of us fit the mold, and some of them eventually figured out it was because they are queer.

So while the descriptions of Hooks' relationship with her father didn't resonate fully with me, there are a whole host of characters here for you to embody: Women in the form of critique of their relations with men, Fathers in relation to their children, both boys and girls, Kids (mostly daughters) and their relations with their fathers, Men and their relations with Women and themselves. For me, it is the conversations about Fathers (as I am one), Spouses, and Brothers that really resonated with me. I think that is the real power of how this text is written. You will find yourself, in one way or another, in these stories. I never want to be the kind of father my daughter doesn't want to talk to, who doesn't know my loving embrace, who wishes me dead so she can be free. I want to be like that Uncle of mine who kisses everyone who comes to the house, and gives them warm hugs. Likewise, I wish to have other outlets than anger for my emotions, and I really understand that sentiment of "No one wants to hear how I feel".

I think this critique of women and early feminism is interesting, intellectually, but in some ways it almost reads as "not for me". When talking about women not wanting to see their man as weak, I can't speak to that. Maybe as the book progresses, those critiques will feel for me after all, but that's just my first impression.

Tonight, while doing the nightly bedtime routine with my daughter, I could feel myself getting annoyed with her being distracted and not moving along. I had been formulating this post in my head for most of the day, and it was still swimming around up there. I decided, instead of being frustrated, I'd just tell her how I was feeling. This is something she does with us all the time. "I'm just angry!", "I'm just sad...". "Baby, I'm just tired, and it's making me grumpy." and without hesitation she told me, "Well I can do something to make you feel better!" so I asked her what, "Draw you pictures at daycare!", I do enjoy all the art she makes, "How about a hug?" and she gave me a big hug. Suddenly, I wasn't grumpy anymore.

I am enjoying the perspectives in this book so far. I think bell hooks framing the lack of masculine love as both an issue internal in masculinity as well as an issue within the relationships between men and women is very insightful.

I can see that while I'm reading this I'll be thinking not just about my romantic relationships with women, but about how I relate to my father, my friends, and my sons, and how I might be a good model to them. This is going to be a lot of introspection

I really appreciate her position of compassion. Patriarchy really does trap many men in a cage and they rage against it without fully understanding what it is that fuels that rage. To see that kind of anger and approach as one would a wounded animal really touched me. I never really conformed to most cultural standards of masculinity even though I'm cis and heterosexual, and I have felt the contradiction of being outside the norm and sensing from a young age that a lot of "being a man" felt forced and unhealthy, yet still yearning to be a part of it so I would feel more accepted. I appreciate this book for being such a good place to recognize the hurt that exists and to move towards healing.

So far I've only read the preface but the stuff about feeling like you'll only be free when your dad dies hits (ofc with all the parts later on where she explains it's fucked up and shouldn't be like that)

I have to preface this by saying that, while being generally aware of feminist concepts and terms, I have not really read any explicitly feminist theory. I always got the impression that it was not “for me” as it came from a place so removed from my own lived experience, often with no regard for it or outright contempt and hostility. I could engage with and understand how damaging and oppressive patriarchal structures are to women and queer people but didn’t fully grasp just how much it impacts me as a cishet man. I realize that it’s lazy and incredibly self centered to not engage more deeply on subjects that are not directly relevant to me as a person but can’t deny that I struggle to get deeply invested in theory I don’t find some emotional resonance in. If I only engage with something on a purely intellectual level without being able to apply it to lived experiences and critically examine the way those concepts interact with some baseline that’s more intimately familiar it tends to fall flat.

All of that is to say that I’m coming into this book pretty blind so I’m being totally mind blown by concepts that are likely already well trodden for many here. I have a lot more thoughts I’d like to share but feel I should probably just re read the first two chapters again to fine tune them to the actual text rather than going off on an excited but uninformed tangent

The kind of resonation that chapter one has with how I grew up is... Rough. From the ages of 4 to about 14, I was basically the buffer between my stepfather and his kids-- which means I didn't just take my own beatings, but theirs too. And all I can remember is how it felt when around the age of twelve, I just. Stopped caring if I ever earned his love or pride. Was getting... A simulacrum of that from an english teacher. (Lovely man. Genuinely cared about his students. Maybe one of the first casualties of educational standardization; I wouldn't be a writer or as invested in advanced fluency in the languages I speak if not for him and last I knew he went on to become a university professor instead.)

You never really stop to consider the void that leaves, when you grow up that way. And of course, in the course of trying to become my persecutor because I thought that might finally earn his pride, I became monstrous-- but giving up on being him didn't kill the beast that attempting to left behind. Arguably, I'd say the last ten years of my life now have been trying to live in a way where I don't still see his face when I look in the mirror.

If I can be frank, I'm having trouble reading through it and relating like "omg that's it!" like what I'm reading in the discussion.

My parents have issues with emotional processing, but I don't feel like I'd think of my dad as a cold, uncaring patriarch. I think he's a blue MAGA corpo-brain, but I think it would take a contortionist's touch to be able to frame it as a style of toxic masculinity.

I have an emotional tender spot from being overlooked romantically. But I feel like of all the woes that women have in looking for male love don't seem primary to me. Like if women are looking for male love, then they're not really looking in my direction. My friends who are women don't seem like they're compensating for some kind of lack of love when they talk to me. The first thing that comes to mind is my friend who wanted me to be more into Kpop and Chappel Roan, but again, it feels like a stretch to say something like I'm too closed off emotionally and that if I were more honest with myself I'd like Kpop.

If I had to point to my weakest spot in my relationship with femininity, it's that I don't have any women who make the short list of people I'd go to when I'm expressing vulnerabilities that I'm working through. Women, in my mind, are the recipients of healed emotions, never the ones who see the dirty work of fixing deficiencies. I can relate to the idea of "please don't tell us how you feel." so if my mental landscape is a place people can visit, only a select few people help with the work of environmental remediation and the rest, which includes women as a whole, are more readily compared to tourists of approved sites where 99%+ of vulnerable emotions are inert. For example, if you ask, you'll learn that my most recent ex broke up with me over text, but you'll never hear me tell you that once I feel like the rot hits any of my relationships that nobody's ever been down to do work like establishing boundaries, discuss miscommunications, and make explicit expectations with me.

I just feel like I'm a self-aware person to the point where my biggest weaknesses are intense internal criticisms of myself and others. So I detest playing ignorant with myself to the point of emotional dysregulation. It doesn't appear to me like my mental landscape is rooted in toxic masculinity even as I talked about these concerns while preparing for this discussion. I'm open to and would relish in new perspectives.

Without judging my emotional reactions, I find it interesting that the line in the intro that immediately makes me feel respect for bell hooks, who I've never read before, is simply stating, from a place of wanting to love, that she fears men. Just that simple thing so plainly said, but it's so...loaded? I don't know the word. I think one very common experience many people of all types share with men is learning, either explicitly or implicitly, that you can't show fear if you want men writ large to leave you alone. And this is a topic where I'm a bit out over my skis because while this is something very broadly experienced, I can only speak to it from one angle, the angle of being raised as a boy/man. But the experiences of that upbringing, with the way that both male adults and other boys condition and are conditioned into enforcing "normal" male socialization onto others by punishing displays of vulnerability...it's something very deeply instilled that you must embody a militaristic stoicism at all times, never let them see you hurt, don't even let you see yourself hurt.

So to cop to that fear right off the bat has the same emotional weight to me as one of those millions of fiction moments where the protagonist completely disarms and walks directly into the enemy camp to talk. Something simple in concept, but so genuine and courageous that it's utterly compelling. A kindness nott alien, but familiar in a way that makes you realize you've been the alien. It has me thinking of the lifelong pattern where I can only show any kind of vulnerability to someone who shows it to me first. People have always said I'm a loyal friend because they can come to me, and I accept and am there for them in dark moments, but a lot of that is me wanting to be -just feel, I guess- both worthy of having problems, and safe to share them. And you feel safe with someone when they need you.

I started with the TT version for the preface and then switched to the other one. I like both though.

I've listened up to the third chapter now and love the book so far. I won't discuss points from later chapters in this post.

I think what hooks does really well is uniquely presenting important feminist theory in a way, that makes the facts about hard truths and complex power structures, that she hits us with, both easy to grasp and easy to accept. She accomplishes this effect by distilling years of experience from working closely with men in lectures and seminars into carefully choosen anecdotes, each designed to awaken your empathy and immediately open your eyes to a reality larger than the particular incident mentioned. This makes for an exciting and easy to follow style, while simultaneously creating the "will to change" in the reader.

Often these anecdotes describe what Paulo Freire in the Pedagogy of the Oppressed might call limit-situations, situations in which we encounter limits to our freedom, which are dialectically accompanied by the possibility for limit-acts: going beyond our former limitations. In this way, hooks applies a tried and true pedagogy to a difficult subject. Her goal is not to impress or intimidate her audience with her deep knowledge, though she doubtlessly could, but to help them change them for the better. She offers us the opportunity to empathically follow along with these limit-situations in order to learn from them and translate them into action (limit-acts) in our own lives. The subject of this book is the reader more than the theory, because it is meant to affect change in them.

That's why this book seems "entry level" and easy. Not because the subject matter is generally agreeable among a leftist cis male audience, but because her pedagogy is just that good. Writing low-threshold is actually not easy.

I often myself found thinking about my own live, my own childhood. What were the moments in which I learned patriarchy? Where did I first run against a wall of expectations? Was it at home? In school? How did I react? What believes did I form and which behavioral patterns? Do I still hold on to some of them?

I've been a feminist and known about patriarchy for a long time yet I've recently been struggling to stay soft and in touch with my emotions in stressful situations or when it comes to heavy topics. I'm excited about the opportunity to unlearn some toxic assumptions. And I hope, that engaging with the book might help me to engage with my own past and maybe heal some inevitable emotional scars from growing up in a patriarchal society.

This chapter resonates with me in a very depressing way. I feel like even today I have a difficult time expressing real emotions, even with my gf, because it feels very vulnerable to open myself up like that considering the bad experiences I've had in the past with displaying emotion. Whenever i have to talk about my own feelings eith someone it feels very awkward and "cringe", for lack of a better word, to even think about having a genuine emotional connection with someone (especially other men). Even thinking about telling someone after the fact that something they said hurt me makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

I like that Bell hooks talks about how "real men get mad" as well because it's very frustrating to not have the willingness or experience to be able to express my feelings with the full spectrum of feeling available to others. Often the only way I've found I know how to express that something someone said was hurtful is frustration and anger in the moment, which just creates further strife especially when the other person gets defensive in response.

I found the preface and first chapter challenging in a productive way. As somebody who's never felt or desired romantic connections to men i found it a good reminder to be confronted with how openly she talks about needing emotionally available men in her life. It's something that very often falls by the wayside with how heteropessimism is spreading among younger women. I've had a very rocky relationship with masculinity throughout my life, from me as an egg never being able to meet the demands of patriarchy placed upon me due to my AGAB to the liberation of being able to just discard these demands as soon as i realized i never want to be seen as a man again. And when you combine that with the fall i took when i gave up male privilege (that i never really wanted and could never fully utilize because accquiring it harmed me even more than it harms men) and faced misogyny firsthand for the first time, it just becomes very easy to grow resentful of men and to slip into a quasi-essentialist mindset.

It's good to confront that, and it opens up a lot of interesting personal questions for me as well, but i wonder if future chapters (i just finished the second one) will answer my question how to help men who just can not heal in the same way i did, who do not have the quick and radical way out of rejecting all forms of masculinity available to them. I know firsthand how brutally the patriarchy trains boys and men and everybody it sees as these to police masculinity, it must be tough to find a road towards a healthy masculine role that allows for the healing and the emotional availability that the men of this world need now more than ever.

I read this about ten years ago, but it was interesting revisiting it for this. A couple of thoughts

1. I'm nonbinary, but I was raised as a male, and I found it and continue to find it incredibly alienating, as hooks talks about. I don't know how to relate to most men, and yet I find it hard to approach women for friendship. The one long-term friend I have who I thought was male came out as trans a couple of years ago.

2. WRT what hooks says about anger being the only acceptable emotion for men. I went to therapy some years ago to deal with some anger issues and I realized that anger feels like a "safe" emotion. That a lot of times when I thought I was angry I was actually feeling sad, or hurt or insecure. But because those emotions weren't safe, I would process them as anger instead.

Hooks mentions an episode where her brother shuts off emotionally after the prolonged exposure to patriarchal indoctrination.

I've had this happen to me and I've also heard this happening to an ex-partner around a tender adolescent age. We find ourselves totally alienated emotionally and we break. For me it was after a heartbreak and didnt really feel like i had an emotional support around parents, family or friends. The valve for love is shut off and turn cold. Parents can sometimes notice this. Our culture is totally loveless. I can't imagine how much worse its gotten since my own upbringing.

So I feel like many of the concepts hooks discusses in these chapters are things I kinda already know just from being in leftist spaces and engaging with basic feminist ideas, but her perspective on these issues is really interesting and clearly comes from a place of genuine love and compassion for men, in stark contrast to the strawman chuds like to use of the raging, man-hating feminist (though hooks acknowledges those kinds of feminists do exist in a very small minority).

When she talks about how existing (particularly, early) feminist literature didn’t really have satisfying discussions of masculinity and specifically positive masculinity, I get the sense that the first waves of feminism lacked the materialist analysis that more modern intersectional feminism offers. Someone mentioned in the previous thread that this book is a pretty entry-level text and reading about the development of feminist theory really makes me want to read more (I’d love to do future book clubs on other feminist works).

What struck me the most in these sections was her example of her younger brother and how he changed dramatically once the patriarchy got its claws into his spirit:

In his younger years our brother was a loving presence in our household, capable of expressing emotions of wonder and delight. As patriarchal thinking and action claimed him in adolescence, he learned to mask his loving feelings. He entered that space of alienation and antisocial behavior deemed “natural” for adolescent boys. His six sisters witnessed the change in him and mourned the loss of our connection. The damage done to his self-esteem in boyhood has lingered throughout his life, for he continues to grapple with the issue of whether he will define himself or allow himself to be defined by patriarchal standards.

IMO this is a pretty universal experience for young boys in western patriarchal culture, I went through a similar shift when I was young and its kind of the first major heartbreak of a young kid’s life. Before I entered grade school I was a super cheery, loving, sensitive little kid who just wanted to be friends with everyone and spread the joy around, but other kids who already fully bought into our society’s fucked up expectations for men just sucked most of that out of me. I was bullied a ton in school for being sensitive and a little nerd with almost zero “macho” attributes. The cruelty inflicted on young boys, especially by OTHER YOUNG BOYS, is staggering and really drives home how violent patriarchy is towards both women and men and especially people outside of the rigid gender binary

The other big takeway from the section for me was hooks’ talking about her own experience being uncomfortable with her masc partner’s emotions:

When I was in my twenties, I would go to couples therapy, and my partner of more than ten years would explain how I asked him to talk about his feelings and when he did, I would freak out. He was right. It was hard for me to face that I did not want to hear about his feelings when they were painful or negative, that I did not want my image of the strong man truly challenged by learning of his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Here I was, an enlightened feminist woman who did not want to hear my man speak his pain because it revealed his emotional vulnerability.

She compares this to her grandparents’ relationship:

...my mother’s father, Daddy Gus, found it easier to be disloyal to patriarchy in old age. He was the man in my childhood who practiced the art of loving. He was emotionally aware and emotionally present, and yet he also was trapped by a patriarchal bond. Our grandmother, his wife of more than sixty years, was always deeply invested in the dominator model of relationships. To macho men Daddy Gus, Mama’s father, appeared to be less than masculine. He was seen as henpecked.

This is fascinating to me because I hadn’t really considered that many women have fully bought into patriarchal norms, maybe because most of the women in my life are very much not about that shit. Granted she is also speaking about people and events from decades ago, a decent bit removed from the modern more “progressive” era (for lack of a better term). I’ve never been in a relationship where my partner was uncomfortable or upset with me expressing my feelings, in fact that’s always been encouraged and welcomed. So clearly the tide is shifting (at least in my own anecdotal experience) which is a big positive takeaway.

I also love how Chapter 1 ends:

Women have believed that we could save the men in our lives by giving them love, that this love would serve as the cure for all the wounds inflicted by toxic assaults on their emotional systems, by the emotional heart attacks they undergo every day. Women can share in this healing process. We can guide, instruct, observe, share information and skills, but we cannot do for boys and men what they must do for themselves. Our love helps, but it alone does not save boys or men. Ultimately boys and men save themselves when they learn the art of loving.

The femmes in our lives who love and cherish us are a blessing and an essential piece of unlearning the toxic norms that’ve been imposed on us, but they can’t do the true work for us, we have to be willing to do the work to change for the better. It’s our responsibility as masculine people living in and benefitting from an oppressive system. I can’t wait to continue reading.

Instead of reading chapter 1 I got really sick and slept for like three days. I have read this previously but my brain isn't working well enough to recall much right now.

A lot of what bell hooks talks about resonates with me, because of my left-wing views and my understanding of how systems like patriarchy shape us. Especially the idea that men are expected to be “strong” by holding back emotions, which made me reflect on my own upbringing.

Coming out of a three year relationship I find Hook’s takes revealing. Some part of me is hesitant about her perspective. How can a woman’s perspective wholly inform a man’s perspective about masculinity and love?

Moreover I think the crisis with men nowadays has to be considered with context of the dating scene, perceptions of attractiveness, and confidence. In this book I’m interested to see what Hooks has to say about this?

Requesting a ping

TIME TO DISCUSS SOME THEORY Y'ALL!!

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I really enjoyed this! Listened to the TT version. I know this is just the preface and chapter 1, so the real meat and potatoes aren't here yet. Some thoughts:

I really find Hooks' prose compelling, and really grabs the reader. The bit about even kind and compassionate men being looked down upon by others, driving women with even compassionate fathers into toxic relationships because of societal pressures was interesting, and a new layer.

The dying father sections also really struck me, as well as the idea that paternal love is so valued because of its scarcity.

Looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say, and following this through!

Gonna post my thoughts once I get home and have the time and room to type it up. But just wanted to say I appreciate this book club. This is my first time reading this book and I really like it so far. Feels like a good point to start from.

I listened to the Tankietube version. The voice was so much better suited than the Youtube version. The YT version was also missing the preface.

I found it interesting overall, although generally so far Hooks (I know she doesn't want it capitalised, but it makes for confusing reading otherwise, sorry...) has prioritised personal reflections over hard data. That's all I found lacking. I'm sure she gets into that in the next chapters. The words have had a nice rhythm so far though. It's an easy listen.

The stuff about the scarcity of male affection resulting in it being worth more was especially interesting.

I had another bit that resonated with me, but I can't recall it right now. I'm sure someone else will mention it for me.

In general, while listening I reflected on my current psyche, and how in getting through some trying times I have recently become more emotionally blunted than I've been in a long time, and found myself at times unable to even find the words to comfort others. It resonated with me that to rectify that, I must consciously recognise when I do it.

Overall, a valuable listen so far, and I'll be tuning into the next chapters.

Can I get pinged too?