this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2024
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chapotraphouse

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[–] Hexboare@hexbear.net 59 points 1 week ago

I think this has the quote wrong?

Pretty sure it's "suck my tongue"

[–] Inui@hexbear.net 56 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

He's unfortunately the public face of Buddhism to the common person in the West, but I always have to go out of my way to emphasize how he's really just a drop in the ocean. He's not even the spiritual head of his own school, just the political figurehead for the exile government.

I studied at a Kagyu-Nyingma monastery and he never gets mentioned at all. His relevance to the average Buddhist who isn't Tibetan is really quite low, and even many Tibetan practitioners don't think of him as an authority, but just another teacher they may or may not be familiar with.

Someone practicing Zen or Chan or Pure Land, or anything else outside of that sphere doesn't regard him at all except on an individual level.

Edit: I know he tries to sell Buddhism to the average Westerner who is influenced by Facebook posts, so pithy quotes like this are his style. But the Gelug school is literally the debate school that practices reductio ad absurdum in the courtyards to suss out what is true. So it's always a little sad to see that and the rest of the philosophy de-emphasized.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 29 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I studied at a Kagyu-Nyingma monastery

Thats so cool, is there any ancient and forbidden knowledge you learned there which you'd want to share with us?

[–] Inui@hexbear.net 40 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Lol, no. I just mentioned it to point out that even the other Tibetan schools don't really have much to do with the Dalai Lama. His picture isn't hung up anywhere.

I used to think that if I ever wanted to leave everything behind, I'd go be a monk somewhere. But then I started falling asleep during lectures because they were being live translated from Tibetan into English and it's hard to concentrate when someone is speaking a language you don't know but you have to listen to them respectfully like you have a clue what it is they're saying.

The biggest lesson I learned was the value of community and I sort of understood why people congregate to churches and things. Everyone around me had the same baseline assumptions of what they should be doing to better themselves and to support each other, so it felt really significant to progress along that path together. These were people that traveled from all over the world to come to this spot to learn from authentic teachers, so they were also much more genuine than the meditation bros you'll find many places in the West. I hope to find that same community of socialists irl when I am in a position to do so.

If it were possible, I'd fly every Western Buddhist somewhere like that so they can experience the culture shock between their perception of commodified versions of Buddhism presented here and how much logic and philosophy is actually involved. It isn't just good vibes and sitting on a meditation cushion. There's mountains of texts written about epistemology, ethics, logic, etc. And it's not static, there's been many advancements in thought over the last decade. Such as how we now know that both Mahayana and 'Theravadin' (they weren't called that back then) Buddhists existed in the same monasteries in the past and no longer think that Mahayana was a later development, but competing schools of thought that developed in conversation with each other.

There's not really too many 'secret teachings' or anything. Even the things that are supposed to be 'secret' are really just things you're supposed to be trained by a teacher on first so that you do them properly. It's not a gatekeeping thing, but a "hey maybe you shouldn't meditate in front of corpses to contemplate death without first appropriately contextualizing this action and mentally preparing yourself so that you don't develop mental health issues" thing.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, that time also turned me vegan. The monastery only served vegan food. Meat has been big in Tibetan culture for a long time, but even long-dead masters had problems with it and monasteries forbidding meat is becoming more and more widespread. There's lots of texts about animal rights and their place in Buddhist ethics as well.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Fascinating, thank you for the writeup!

So how do you prepare yourself mentally to contemplate death in front of a corpse?

[–] Inui@hexbear.net 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't honestly know, it's not something I tried and it's not something anyone I know actually did. It is something that is mentioned in texts though. It's supposed to be a very advanced practice if you do it at all, so not something for newcomers. Primarily for the reason I mentioned of how it can really mess you up if you just go and do it on a whim.

[–] SuperNovaCouchGuy2@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah thats fair enough, did you learn/experience anything that changed the way you see reality on a fundamental level (other than what you mentioned about community)?

[–] Inui@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (6 children)

Well, I edited my comment to say the experience also turned me vegan. Since the primary goal is the reduction and elimination of suffering, it only stands to reason this includes animal suffering. I don't consider myself a Secular Buddhist in that I don't try to mold the religious teachings I've received into a secular framework (and I do not like Stephen Bachelor), but I just go along with some things while not personally believing they are true. Rebirth being the biggest thing, where a lot of Buddhist philosophy falls apart if you remove cosmological components like that, since many things follow from that assumption. But I'm not personally sold.

Buddhists tells a lot of stories about how significantly advanced practitioners can influence their own rebirths by building the mental fortitude (through years/lifetimes of meditation practice) to withstand and navigate the hellish and chaotic experience of their mindstream being ripped from their body at death and scattered/pulled in many different directions to their new life. It's silly to tell, but essentially, someone told me that my cat could be an enlightened being who is here to teach me patience and compassion for other beings. Do I literally believe that? No. But the idea did make me try to temper some of my impatience with their more destructive behaviors and open my mind to being more compassionate toward other animals in general.

Wikipedia no doubt has a simplified explanation, but in Madhyamaka philosophy, there's the idea of the "two truths" which is something we delved very heavily into. I don't know that it has really changed how I interact with the world as much as the former thing though.

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[–] Belly_Beanis@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

But then I started falling asleep during lectures because they were being live translated from Tibetan into English and it's hard to concentrate when someone is speaking a language you don't know but you have to listen to them respectfully like you have a clue what it is they're saying.

As far as I know, Tibetan is one of the hardest languages to learn, if not the hardest (with Polish being the other one). Its "orthographic depth" is all fucked because it's kept the same spelling for most of its words since 620 AD, with some spelling reforms around 800 AD. It's like if English had everything written in Latin, but pronounced like we already do (example: "finally" being spelled "ad ultimum"). So not only is it in a family already difficult for outsiders, there's no way to learn the spelling except by memorizing specific words, which also makes looking up words difficult.

Arabic has a similar life story to Tibetan, where it was spread and kept alive through religious texts (the Koran). But unlike Tibetan, Arabic has localized and standard updates to its writing. Vowels, for example, weren't originally written in the Arabic used in the Koran. Modern Arabic has vowels inserted to make it easier to read (that is what all those , ' ` -looking things are in Arabic script, those are vowels). Tibetan hasn't done this.

It's one of the challenges of improving literacy among Tibetans. A lot of them are like "Have you seen this shit? It may as well be Greek."

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[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 50 points 1 week ago (5 children)

The other day, after I claimed that china isn't a historically expansionist or militarist country, I was told "what does the dalai lama have to say about that?". Holy shit people are dumb. Like, ask the pope what he thinks about the genocide in Palestine instead, genius.

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 80 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The idea of China invading the country at the request of the Tibetan Communist Party, crushing the Lamas, freeing the slaves, and iirc they had to do it twice because the Lamas tried to start shit again, would never penetrate, would it?

I remember a Chinese person slapping down some of this bullshit saying that 98% of Tibetans speak Tibetan and asking the American how many native americans spoke an indigenous language.

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 43 points 1 week ago (2 children)

and asking the American how many native americans spoke an indigenous language

And this is why libs invented 'that's just whataboutism'

[–] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago

And in lib tradition the term would be completely unapplicable here lmao

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 28 points 1 week ago

There's also just the fact that Tibet diplomatically rejoined with China right after the end of the Civil War and only decided to split a decade later, after much work had been done to improve conditions for the serfs and this lead to an outraged aristocratic class trying to breakaway to maintain power. It's very roughly like calling the US expansionist for invading the Confederacy.

[–] Bloobish@hexbear.net 30 points 1 week ago (3 children)

A question for them would be "what does the Dalai Lama have to say about Nepal having peasant slaves into the 20th century and why do all the Bhuddist Temples have to be gilded in gold?"

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[–] TheBroodian@hexbear.net 40 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Didn't he just tell some kid to suck on his tongue like a year ago?

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yup, and deprogram sub upvoted his defenders for that.

[–] heggs_bayer@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago (1 children)

r/thedeprogram seems like the mirror universe version of r/chapotraphouse. Instead of the sub being more based than the showrunners, they're less based.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

It's pretty easy to explain though, and not really chapo but GenZedong, that sub got harsh struggle sessions about imperialism and religion, and when it was banned, based people went to Lemmygrad while centrists and clerical socialists went to deprogram (good advice: don't engage on deprogram about religion, while they are some people with correct takes there, you can more often read takes like the defence of tongue sucking or absolute nuclear takes that you can't become marxist without religion or that religion is inherently materialist).

[–] heggs_bayer@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago (10 children)

good advice: don't engage on deprogram about religion, while they are some people with correct takes there, you can more often read takes like the defence of tongue sucking or absolute nuclear takes that you can't become marxist without religion or that religion is inherently materialist

Oof. It doesn't help that at least 2 of the 3 bois are religious. Hakim is Muslim and Yugopnik is Eastern Orthodox. I don't know about JT.

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 38 points 1 week ago

I've seen his kindness and it shouldn't be around kids

[–] Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net 28 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Didn't this guy own slaves or some shit?

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 50 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I doubt it, the pla stopped all that shit in the fifties. He's old but not that old. Afaik he's spent most of his life being trotted around as a mascot for anti-chinese propaganda. I don't think he's ever had much, if any, agency.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 1 week ago (1 children)

He was born in 1935 and became Dalai Lama in 1940.

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[–] Diuretic_Materialism@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Tenzin was born after the fall of the Tibetan feudal system so no he didn't personally.

[–] Gucci_Minh@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

He would love it if he could tho, as do most of the lama class in exile

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 1 week ago (4 children)

What? Serfdom was abolished in 1959 and he was born in 1935, and became Dalai Lama in 1940.

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[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yes, idk what people below say. He was born in 1935, became Dalai Lama in 1940 and serfdom was abolished ultimately and he was exiled in 1959

[–] CarmineCatboy2@hexbear.net 28 points 1 week ago

who needs a temple when they are on the CIA's payroll

[–] Gucci_Minh@hexbear.net 27 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Come listen to this banger instead https://yewtu.be/watch?v=b60_Vis2x24

The burning of the slave contracts gets me emotional ngl

CW: some historical footage of Tibetan serfdom that may be disturbing

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago

Oof, yeah. Slavery and serfdom in pre-communist Tibet was bad. Maybe not as bad as American slavery in scope, but very very bad. Please exercise caution when you research it and be ready to take a break if it starts to be overwhelming.

[–] Monk3brain3@hexbear.net 27 points 1 week ago

No need for temples coz you got booted out bro

[–] DamarcusArt@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 1 week ago

"Your own mind, your own heart, and your child sex slaves are the temple. Your philosophy is simple kindness and millions of dollars."

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (10 children)

Reminds me of a funny video I saw that talked about some of the most famous Japanese warlords and their depiction in media; one of the warlords is often depicted as a funny monkey man but he was a brutal war criminal who tried to invade Korea and killed tons and tons of people, and he mentioned something about the other two but I can't recall what it was exactly (I think one of them was Nobunaga who I think he said was the least worst of the bunch but still bad).

You get this simple philosophy here but the history behind the group is actually quite horrific (if I recall correctly, wikipedia even has a page just for Tibetan torture methods).

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago (11 children)

I hate how Nobunaga gets venerated as a god-general-statesman in cultural exports when he was just a ruthless conqueror the same as anyone else. I wish one one-hundredth of the ink spilled for him was spilled for the Ikko-Ikki peasant revolt he crushed. Were that the case, I might be able to successfully research it.

[–] Belly_Beanis@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The whole Samurai caste is romanticized, especially outside of Japan. They were the ruthless, opportunistic enforcers of the hierarchy, not honorable warrior-scholars. Bushido is what led Japan down the path of imperialism and resulted in WWII.

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[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Even when you fight Nobunaga in media you're usually doing it as the stooge of some other warlord

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[–] doublepepperoni@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

lol, was it this guy, Hideyoshi Toyotomi? He was in every Onimusha game too as Nobunaga's sidekick before becoming the ruler of Japan between the third and fourth games. The final Onimusha game is actually all about his atrocities- invading "the continent"(the country is never specified), massacring civilians, outlawing Christianity and killing all Western missionaries (though that last one doesn't sound too bad)

The funny thing is that he ends up completely exonerated in Onimusha lore- he was just a smol bean who became possessed by demons and he feels real bad about it

[–] Evilsandwichman@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

Yesssssss, that's the guy! He did so much monstrous stuff but he's usually depicted in a goofy manner!

outlawing Christianity and killing all Western missionaries (though that last one doesn’t sound too bad)

Most of work here was done later by Tokugawas: Ieyasu, Hidetada and Iemitsu, but despite brutality it was a W (most of said brutality happened really during Iemitsu reign). Hideyoshi observed in real time how christianity served as softener for colonialism and it's clear he wanted to avoid it, though preferably keeping trade with Europeans. Interesting fact is that christianity was pretty thin in Japan as in case of both Sekigahara campaign and later sieges of Osaka, overwhelming most of Japanese christians supported Hideyoshi's heir Hideyori.

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[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago

I can excuse being an anti-communist relic of a fallen feudal slave state, but I draw the line at anti-gooning stances.

[–] heggs_bayer@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago

The CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, is his temple.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

So why does he and his cronies even whine about losing temples, land and slaves? China did them a favour!

[–] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago

Met(t)apost: Communism is taking the philosophy of kindness and applying it to political economy

[–] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

libertarian-alert "Sure it is, just like it was with the tibetan ruling religious caste for centuries."

[–] Red_Sunshine_Over_Florida@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I hate how this guy used to capture my father's attention. He thought this guy was somehow some sort of authentic practitioner. He's just as corrupt as our local priests who work hand in glove with the local Republicans.

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